The Future of the Imp Club

[impmann]

3 whinging voices dragging up past issues does not get anything, done

Thats more than a little disparaging - the issues the club faces revolve around many factors, and putting right some of the issues that are still pissing some of us off (and have pissed off a lot to the point of leaving) is just as relevant as ideas for getting 'fresh blood' into the club. If we don't settle some of these long term/long held problems they fester... and we then have little or no hope of attracting back those who actually left because their noses were put out of joint (in some cases because they dared to question - and were said to be whingeing...).

The future of the club depends on *everyone* being listened to - even if those voices aren't singing the same tune as everyone else.

[bks974c]

3 whinging voices dragging up past issues does not get anything, done

Thats more than a little disparaging - the issues the club faces revolve around many factors, and putting right some of the issues that are still pissing some of us off (and have pissed off a lot to the point of leaving) is just as relevant as ideas for getting 'fresh blood' into the club. If we don't settle some of these long term/long held problems they fester... and we then have little or no hope of attracting back those who actually left because their noses were put out of joint (in some cases because they dared to question - and were said to be whingeing...).

The future of the club depends on *everyone* being listened to - even if those voices aren't singing the same tune as everyone else.

That's not how I read Mike's comments rather the club needs more people to come forward with what they would like to see, much as your saying but I'll leave Mike to address it if he wishes.

Scott

[moose]

Tim. I have no idea who has been p!ssed off by the committee or club and or why. It was really a general observation that this keeps getting mentioned so whoever these people are they are still going on about it so must care about the club so this needs switching from neg to pos. What is the root cause of it and how can it be addressed. Sort of, don't just give the people who are trying problems give them solutions. Sorry if this has been done in the past as I have said I am not party to those issues. This thread has promoted some really good discussion but I have only seen suggestions from one person and there are how many club members? This needs time to grow and everyone needs to be involved. You cannot please all the people all the time and instantly but people like me who are fresh to the committee and have no idea of previous problems may just have a solution or maybe able to adapt the solution suggested to make the majority happy. If I have ruffled your feathers it was not intentional.

[John A Ross]

Mike

Unfortunately the suggestions only coming from 1 or even a handful can be easy spun into a case for no change, nothing broke, leave as it is. Or branded trouble making.Or if enough reasons can be thought up to object, the ideas dies.

It is all too easy these days to create a villian and bring people together for the good fight. A lot harder to actually spend that wasted energy constructively.

Some movement, but thast it, a bit of coming together and then it stops and you are back in same place with nothing positive achieved

Same as it is all too easy in our paranoid society to find reasons not to change or do things and in volunteering in general, very common for ideas to be put down as those already doing work can do no more, but are unprepared to step aside or trust/enagege with anyone else.

I seriosuly doubt there will be many contributors, perhaps if a canned version was added to the deabte via the magazine and have responses by post might help.

I am still optimistic the message can be heard and positive change achieved.

I do not see my optimism as a weakness I do not see my efforts to try things and fail as a weakness. I would disspaoint msyelf if I did not set goals and at least give it my best shot

[impmann]

Perhaps reaching out to those who were once *very* active on here (or indeed in the club) who no longer are would be an excellent starting point for understanding *WHY*. I sound like a stuck record here - and have been saying that for some time... privately and publicly. Its what you do in business when you do CSAT scoring or surveys where you score badly - you directly engage with the customer involved. Its time consuming, doesn't always work (turning a neg into a pos... sometimes that is just impossible as the bridge has been burned) but you understand the reasons, and can then act on that information (or ignore it, as appropriate).

The reasons you get the same people replying on here - *is because there are very few people on this forum any more* and so you'll only get replies from the same people.

In my professional life, I am head of a CS team for an international company (amongst many other things) - my issue with the "3 whinging voices" comment is that if that is how you view someone's perspective, that is a negative starting point (even if that's just a throwaway half-joking comment). It can be perceived by the reader that the writer isn't interested in hearing about negative perceptions/negative experiences and only wants positive suggestions that they can implement... sorry, but thats not how it works when you have disgruntled people and you are trying to improve things. No matter how it was meant, it can come across as 'holier than thou' and that was my issue here. All the members of the committee need to be open to *all* voices, and not approach things with a "can't please all the people all the time" mindset, because if you do... all you'll do is please those that agree with the current thinking/attitudes/opinions/plans, and as Roy has alluded to that position probably needs to change.

I don't have feathers - so ruffling them would be difficult, mate.

[Uncle Henry]

John Ross tells us that the readership of the Forum is quite high. So that suggests quite strongly that there are many on here soaking it up, who don't feel the need to comment. I've levelled criticism toward the committee members in the past, because they don't appear to support the Forum by joining in. Maybe they are all among the "watchers" ? Who knows. We used to have a couple of guys join our meetings of the Sussex area of the Rover SD1 Club. Neither had an SD1, in fact they both owned Audi's. They called their Club Audi "Club Apathy", and came along for the banter and beer. It's not an uncommon phenomenon.

AG

[John A Ross]

Andy

~15% of registered users have logged in at least once since 01-JAN-2023 and for a niche forum thats excellent
~25% within last 6 months
~35% within last 12 months

This topic alone has no generated nearly 1,000 views so they are being read but those statistics need to be put in context now as everyone including search/cache engines can nowe see all these without logging in.

The foums have taken a hit though as there are a lot of broken cached links out there while the forums are on vacation on a different server and the DNS is not 100% which is an issue oevrall.

Page redirects to club main site are down significantly but overall page impressions are up and suprisinly track similar to hillmanimp.org, likely due to the similar conteent / niche interest

So while the content is attracting views, they are not the views we parhaps want.

Its all back to what I said earlierabouthow do we measure a success and build on that or do we view some of it a s a failure learn and try something else.

My own personal goal at hillmanimp.org is to drive page impressions up, get as many reads as possible. Members registered does not really make any difference as everything is free to read anyway, I see same IPs visiting that have previously logged on so there are registered users pass by most days, have a read, but do not always login. At least i have a direction and the work suits the spare time I have so it is fun and very little stress unless of course I mess around having fun and break things which I just did not so long ago still it was fun.

Loads of the ideas below from all corners will help in loads of areas but the failure of the planning sub committee to produce anything, or at least my requests to see what has been achieved for all the volunteer resources spent on it have produced nothing, then I would say we have no direction which needs addressed first.

Not sure any of the current contributors can add more, others would need to start chiming in to avoid the get out of change claim that no-one wants it rather than there being a very large amount of unrest in the silence.

You never know, could be the fun is in actually having meetings, they are almost as good as a night in the pub sometimes

[Grahame59]

…This topic alone has no generated nearly 1,000 views so they are being read but those statistics need to be put in context now as everyone including search/cache engines can now see all these without logging in.

John,

This particular thread is a Members Only one, isn't it, so people have to log-in to read it, right?

I agree with you that most who have contributed to this thread probably have little more to add to the discussion but it would be good to hear from more of those who have read the thread but not commented. And, yes, I do appreciate it's not 1000 as that is views not people. Even so, I'd guess there must be at least 100 who have viewed but not commented.

[John A Ross]

Grahame

This has been posted in the club news category and is completely public. No login is required to read. Anyone wishing to comment has to be at least a registered user already.

Still I think this is the perfect place, nothing to hide and all that.

It is also very similar issues many other clubs are currently experiencing or have experienced. Perhaps we can help them, perhaps they can help us. No way to find out if no-one knows.

Not sure where you were heading but I will guess it being puiblic does not sit well with you.

Neither of my chips have left my shoulders yet so I am still perfectly balanced and see no issues with public facing discussion, you might even get some marketing graduate looking to make his bones and enjoys a challenge coming forward, I pushed that possibility in the general direction of a couple of universities I used to engage with.

It is also worth noting a lot of what has been discussed here is not unique to the Imp Club, High drop out on memberships, churn rates very bad, I would not say ageing management but certainly battle weary, no clue which direction they want to go, same safe formula 80's followed at a cost, lack of engagement with young people, lack of correct use of media channels... the issues unique to the Imp Club no-one has kicked over that can yet.

I know a few as well that applaude Roys efforts (about time someone shook the tree a bit was one comment ) and they are no longer members and not registered here so would otherwise no clue of the discussion.

Unfortunately on the current platform (way it has always been) no procedure to update menvber list tables here or link to membership database as regards entitements has ever really existed other than print or display a list and check one by one each month or so. This was all detailed last year. It was one of the pro points for moving to another integrated platform as even in 2021 no-one had time to do it and from what I seen the decade before that.

Onwards we go

[Grahame59]

Grahame

This has been posted in the club news category and is completely public. No login is required to read. Anyone wishing to comment has to be at least a registered user already.

Still I think this is the perfect place, nothing to hide and all that.

It is also very similar issues many other clubs are currently experiencing or have experienced. Perhaps we can help them, perhaps they can help us. No way to find out if no-one knows.

Not sure where you were heading but I will guess it being puiblic does not sit well with you.

Not heading anywhere and not unhappy with it being accessible to all, John. I only asked in case not having to sign in to read this thread affected the view count, that's all. But I am not expert at all on IT matters so maybe the 1000 views you mention includes those who have not had to sign-in? That was my question.

And my other point still stands, it would be really good to hear from some of the people who have read the thread but not commented.

[John A Ross]

Not heading anywhere and not unhappy with it being accessible to all, John. I only asked in case not having to sign in to read this thread affected the view count, that's all. But I am not expert at all on IT matters so maybe the 1000 views you mention includes those who have not had to sign-in? That was my question.

And my other point still stands, it would be really good to hear from some of the people who have read the thread but not commented.

Grahame, that count encompasses all views, granted unlike an analytics view it does not identify unique page impressions. If someone reads it twice, it is 2 views. Its a good rough yard stick though. The forum login stats however are accurate but we have no idea if those users are members or not.

And yes, I agree absolutely more voices would be greatly appreciated here, they do not have to actually volunteer to do anything other than contribute to the discussion

A quote from another group andanother very large organisations with considerable funds and 20K+ stake holders, they too have same issues when trying to recruit people "internally" from a much larger pool, always have. Any new sub groups created will gain momentum but will be disbanded before any of the work is deployed (status quo) and so the cheese off any in house talent. Sound familiar and these are professional educators and engineers !

Sometimes skils overlap, every attempt to get professional help from our community on marketing the activities has had zero response.

As I said, not a unique issue as regards recruitment but then again they only want to recruit "our sort of people" was one comment I seen and require a professional background in HE at least to be considered a candidate. best of luck with that, anyone creative in that setting will go down like a lead balloon .

Many of their biggest successes were off the backs of hard working creative people who were used and discarded, eventually depleting the volunteer resource pool.

Like I suggested below having positions "term time" limited is one very successful policy I have seen work very well in many positions and is a management technique often employed by stores so that the managent team never gets comfy and new talent is at least tried every 2 years. The new brooms always bring at least infectious enthusiasm with them


.

[John A Ross]

A slightly wider net now cast for any familiar voices already registered here, next stage would be social media

Might actually be an idea as these days we have 3 groups, periodicals, niche forums and social media and unfortunatly the first two have a miniscule footprint as regards reaching people. The latter is a great tool if used with caution.



.

[ganderson888]

Question being asked on FB about an email received with what appears to be a link to the Forum referring to the future of the club, could someone check and confirm it's legit please?

[John A Ross]

Yes it is, unfortunely there is no spell checker and so on in the interface and with my small disability that actually read OK

Is what it is, I think somedays I should just take the jump and take the shortcut to the glue factory, would certainly make those that once wished me vapourised a lot happier

[chairman@theimpclub]

John,
No problem - it might even attract more attention like that! Thanks for spreading the word.

Roy Blunt
Imp Club Chairman.

[John A Ross]

Roy, I try

Unfortunately this one embarassed me and the club a little. Not good. Likely damaged any cahnce of a response, after all how can they trust a message spelt like that.

That five minutes spare I would have been better of drinking tea.

Anyway, moving on, like all good failures always something to learn and build on.

Folks thought it was bogus due to the icl.nx12.com domain, rather than forum.theimpclub.co.uk. Which is fair enough. Not sure they thought it was a scam with the merry xmas or happy new year emails right enough !

Makes the case for the point I made on the broken links so I think the sooner the forums are moved back to a permanent home or a plan is made to switch everything to a new host the better.

Still it will give my usual fan base something to laugh about so at least I broiught some individuals a little joy


.

[Uncle Henry]

John, can you not edit the post as you can with "comments" ? Never fails to amaze me how many spelling/grammatical errors there are on FB. And I get flak when I point it out Sometimes it completely changes the context ! And don't get me started on massive scribes without a single punctuation mark.

AG

[John A Ross]

Loads of contributing factors Andy but in end my fault entirely. I really need to take more time as I know the issue exists, I had 5 spare minutes today, I should have left it and took 10.

After all the years of rehab I still cannot get my hands to spell "the" correct all of the time if I hurry too much.

Apprantly it gets better with beer

[Uncle Henry]

Apprantly it gets better with beer

My darts playing is the same.

UH

[RGWM]

Not entirely sure how I'm going to comment here, and undoubtedly I'll upset somebody, but since there don't actually seem to be many people joining in it shouldn't be too apocalyptic..... In some respects I could just have copied Roy Simms' contribution as I empathise with most of what he wrote And this may be TLDR....

Of course the whole question of the validity and retainability of traditional Club structures in an increasingly digital age, where attention spans have shrunk to minutes if not seconds, is not restricted to The Imp Club. I'm a director of the Alfa Romeo Owners Club UK (4200 or so members, which we've increased over recent years despite less Alfas on the road), and also on the committee of Lancashire Automobile Club (250 or so members), as well as being an Imp Club ACO for many years - and much the same issues are debated in all three - particularly the cost/benefit of having a printed magazine versus an online/pdf version, the competing attractions of social media, and the issue of an ageing demographic.

For the magazine, I personally hate reading online versions - clunky PITA things, but I appreciate that others have different views - and also that the cost savings from running a choice of paper or online are negligible if not negative. In AROC we have digitised our past archive of magazines and it is a searchable resource - and you can lose hours in there - but it was a big exercise. We also only produce our (excellent) magazine every other month, and an online digital newsletter fills in alternate months - but again its a lot of volunteer effort that is required for that. The printed magazine has a paid-for editor - and is printed by the same people who do Impressions.

AROC has a Board/committee of 10, but do have the luxury of a paid-for Club Manager, who does a lot of the basic day-to-day work for us - but we have roughly 4 times as many members as the Imp Club, and subs at £40, just about to rise to £45 after being held for 10 years. Board members have to stand down after 3 terms, but remain eligible to be re-elected if chosen....there is seldom a huge ballot to choose from eager volunteers, however - and we have on occasion co-opted suitable talent

Crucial to the Imp Club is to determine what is realistically achievable in terms of increasing membership - whilst the increasing value of the cars may mean that more cars are being saved, they sure ain't making any more, and most people wishing to be members will presumably at least aspire to owning one (or several ) so that should set some framework on what could be aimed for. Then maybe the AC structure should be considered - there are currently over 40 ACs, although six or so are in need of an ACO. I was intrigued by the suggestion in an earlier post that without ACs people would just meet together anyway.......I find this laughable. My AC has some 18 members within a fairly wide geographic area ( spreading effectively from the M6 east across Lancashire and into Yorkshire), and this wide spread means that our monthly meets are sparsely attended. Our neighbouring AC (Fylde and N Lancs, home to Moose) has a similar number of members, again spread over a large area, but has no ACO and as far as I know has had no meetings for years - although I do extend a fraternal arm to their members and invite them to our meeting - for many they are much closer than our Yorkshire members, and a few have attended from time to time. So - do we have too many ACs, or too few? Should we try to reassess them in relation to the potential membership, or should we aim that any member could attend a meeting within say 20 minutes drive? I suspect that those ACs with a larger number of members find it easier to generate that "vibe" from a bigger mix and interchange of ideas.

On another topic, of supporting Imp Club members in competition, by all means encourage them to help promote the Club, but be aware that most competitors are savvy and will tend to adopt a "no-pay, no-play" philosophy if you want a large advert displayed. AROC supports the (independent) Alfa Romeo Championship Association series, but it cost a 4-figure sum to have two door stickers on each car. If you start to go down the route of subsidising individual members to compete, it gets (a) expensive very quickly, and (b) gives you a whole bunch of headaches to choose who are the lucky recipient(s). Not impossible, but not something to go into lightly.

There seems to be a recurrent theme of "I put forward these ideas but they weren't accepted, so I won't try again" - but times and people change, as do ways of working - the committee meetings being largely Zoom-based now - and I wouldn't imagine that anyone wanting to put themselves forward for a committee post wouldn't at least have the opportunity to be chosen by the membership....although I accept that attendance at the AGMs to choose the committee does not generally pose any crowd-control issues.

Anyway, enough for now. I'll try to pop back again soon to see how the debate is going, but It would be nice for Roy if more people could express their thoughts.......

[Uncle Henry]

Hi Richard,

I've just read your thoughts twice, to be sure I've got a feel for what you've written. I did have to Google "TLDR" though, which for others also not informed means "Too Long : Didn't Read". Considering your experience, I've given your input a great deal of credence.

Digital Mags : I'm sure there are many like yourself, who find them "clunky". I would suggest this is down to any particular magazine in question and, if you'll forgive the inference, operator skills. They can feature much more reader involvment, if they carry additional user friendly interactive links. Perhaps I'm not your typical member, but I read a great deal. I would welcome a digital version of Impressions, personally, if only for its space saving properties. I do virtually ALL of my reading on a screen, beit via my Kindle or on my PC/phone. Cost savings my not be viable, nor even necessary, but it would, at least, give a choice. That may be for space or waste saving reasons for the individual to decide.

AC's : Again, perhaps, our hard-core of members in Sussex are far from the norm. We meet fortnightly, usually have between 8 and 12 attendees (on the VERY odd occasion as low as 4, depending on circumstances). I can guarantee that we would continue in this vein even if it wasn't as an "Official" Imp Club AC. Any group meeting, for any given cause, will only be as good as its attendees. Perhaps we are just blessed ??

Sponsorship : I can see your point here, however, as you've alluded to, the Alfa Romeo club is currently assisted by the fact that the marque still produces cars. The membership of your AR club being so enlarged in comparison, obviously assists in allowing other costs to be covered. Editor, Manager, sponsorship etc. But we don't need to be looking at Professional style sponsorship for those in competition. These are not full time drivers, nor teams. They all, I believe, have day jobs or retirement income . As keen Impers, I'm certain that a small space on their cars in exchange for £150 worth of racing oil would suffice. Less even, maybe. Who knows ? But it shouldn't have been seen as anything more...

I'm glad that you've joined in the debate - one thing is certain, we all see the Imp Club from different angles. Long may it live. But if it didn't, the friends I've gained through it will live on in my life.

AG

[John A Ross]

Crucial to the Imp Club is to determine what is realistically achievable in terms of increasing membership -

Richard

With a membership average age increasing, more cars being passed around as projects and never finished or scrapped, ever increasing parts costs and so on I am unsure what the 3 or 5 years committee sub group have planned in this regard or their suggested direction as it all seems silent with their plans and they have all the information.

Best guess is they have a plan and looking for some sort of wider validation.

Worst case they have produced nothing and the time spent over the past years has been wasted.

If membership increase is indeed a goal I think they need to look at alternative levels outside of purely car ownership and member retention. To do that the current method of promoting the club has to change would you not agree ?

Previous suggestion made on targetting the nostalgic demoraphic, which given the amount of bag of sand, it boiled and other stories seems to be everywhere as suprisingly no-one has ever gave me those comments without a smile

There is some agreement this is a good direction, however a reduced membership level (same benefits less magazine) to attract the casual nostaligic imp lover (not perhaps a current owner) has been discounted completely at this time.

No-one else has offered a suggestion how to engage with/attract this group but with car numbers diminishing every year and less and less people with deep enough pockets to restore one, I think this group needs exploring.

While your AROC embraces traditional values as regards the members (top effort), it seems to be far more active as regards marketing and getting the clubs presence and message out there.

Most things Imp Club related are promoted to a very closed and captive audience (paper magazine only) or local shows organised by members except at the NEC show when its full on presence. I cannot remeber seeing an add for the imp club anywhere else.

Small scale investment getting the club out there can surely not do any harm but what is on offer needs to be good enough to hook.

Of course the clubs revenue stream could not support a lot of activities and fees have remained the same for a very long time while costs have done nothing but increase. I am unsure what the position is as regards dues but I would be surprised if a substantial increase is not on the cards.

A couple of local clubs that have been £15/yr till pre-pandemic are now at £45/yr and no over 60s concessions as well, the majority are over 60 !

All of my other club experience has not been car related so great to see some imput from AROC perspective

.

[ImpManiac]

I shall not claim to have read every word of this thread. However, it seems to me to mostly be a constructive dialogue, and that is welcomed. Many of these issues needed to be raised. Again.

My opinion is that the imp Club is facing an existential crisis. Other organisations, on whose committees I sit, are in a similar boat. Before anyone exclaims, "It's you!", it is because I tend to volunteer in organisations that struggle to attract volunteers. Anyway...

Why is the Club competing with social media and societal trends? This is not a battle that can be won. Full stop. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em," right? Why not choose to embrace modern means of doing things. Or at least, choose to learn from them how we could maybe adapt ourselves.

My epiphany was this: make the Imp Club a FREE MEMBERSHIP club. Hear me out. Social media platforms do not charge overtly. Those that join them become their assets, their tradeable commodities. Now it would be difficult to manoeuvre the club into a position such as that. However, leavers have been heard to say, "Why pay to join the Club, when one can obtain all the benefits, elsewhere, free of charge?"

Obviously, this is a radical suggestion. I mention it mainly as a straw man proposal - to stimulate discussion and thinking along new lines.

Events and amenities that the Club lays on that incur costs could be funded in other ways, or maybe delivered differently than they are now. Funding via sponsorship may be possible, given some truly big picture thinking. I'm not suggesting asking Malcolm to fund an event! I am talking about the bigger players in the classic vehicle movement. And it's only an idea.

The other way to think about this different viewpoint is, what value does the Imp Club bring to its members? What could we bring to them? Do for them? Imp spares... yes. Meet-ups... definitely. Discounts... tick. Insurance scheme... yes, though it would need refreshing. Answers to Imp technical questions... for sure. Access to nationally-recognised Imp engineering experts... yes. Which of these need cost the Club money?

For what it's worth, I would be happy to do my bit. I would stand for re-election as Forum Manager at the AGM, and I would make the case for why members should choose me. I still have plans to take this forum places. I would need support and I am, in fact, not an IT or a computer expert! But I am willing.

I shall be taking this concept to the other organisation, to which I alluded. (Work-related.) So I thought I'd bung it up on here too.

What do you all think? Be brutal, but be constructive.

IM

[bks974c]

Paul

"Why is the Club competing with social media and societal trends? " - are we trying to compete ? While I agree F/B seems to be the place where there is a lot of traffic while the forum has quietened off, I don't see it as a competition. What I do see is the same names posting while the majority keep quiet, I have no idea how you would go about changing that

I can see where your going with the FREE Membership, the biggest issue I would have is that people do not see value in free things hence a Free to join Imp Club might be seen as worthless
However, they maybe things that could be offered that add increased value to the current offering, I'll let others suggest what they might be.

Scott

[RGWM]

One of the key things that a free club couldn't do would be organise meets - or at least, let me say I would never organise a meet without the backing public indemnity insurance - which isn't cheap. Nor is running a National weekend - I know I personaly funded (and subsequently had refunded, fortunately!) over £6K of expenditure at the Preston National in 2019. Ok, a lot of that could have been funded by the Club if I'd organised things differently, but someone had to fund it. In the end through careful organisation we actually raised some money for the Club - but I can't imagine how a "free" club could do it.

On another topic - another club I'm in, Lancashire Automobile Club, just voted at the AGM to increase subs from £23 to £28 - but with a £5 discount if you don't want a printed magazine........It will be interesting to see what proportion take up the offer

[Grahame59]

My epiphany was this: make the Imp Club a FREE MEMBERSHIP club…

The other way to think about this different viewpoint is, what value does the Imp Club bring to its members? What could we bring to them? Do for them? Imp spares... yes. Meet-ups... definitely. Discounts... tick. Insurance scheme... yes, though it would need refreshing. Answers to Imp technical questions... for sure. Access to nationally-recognised Imp engineering experts... yes. Which of these need cost the Club money?

Paul, in your list above, whether by accident or design, you have not included Impressions, the production and postage of which is a major club expense so surely cannot be omitted from such a list of member benefits. How do envisage that being paid for with free membership? Or do you see it as being ditched or maybe replaced by an online alternative not requiring printing or postage? I'm not convinced that would satisfy the majority of our members, or to be fair to those who do not yet feel the need to embrace the digital world.

And how would we finance the manufacture of spares?

I do appreciate that your suggestion is deliberately radical/provocative in order to promote discussion, and as a debating strategy that's fine but the reality is we have over a thousand people perfectly happy to pay to be members – to make membership free would be to turn away around 30k per year. Would 'sponsorship' really pay for our spare parts, especially when times are hard and so many companies are struggling? And even if some sponsorship were obtained it is hardly a reliable source of income. It would fluctuate wildly making planning our expenditure totally impossible.

[Uncle Henry]

Free membership ? No, I don't think so. For all the reasons Grahame has stated. Paper magazine excepted

voted at the AGM to increase subs from £23 to £28 - but with a £5 discount if you don't want a printed magazine........It will be interesting to see what proportion take up the offer

A much better idea, and achievable. And, in the Imp Clubs case, I think many would feel the discount a "bonus". Its a difficult thing to quantify, but I don't buy into the thought that most members aren't computer savvy. We have hard-core members well beyond retirement age who (gasp !) even use smart-phones !

About time the "reliance" on the slow, outmoded, paper method of member communication was put in its place.

AG

[Grahame59]

I don't buy into the thought that most members aren't computer savvy. We have hard-core members well beyond retirement age who (gasp !) even use smart-phones !

AG

Andy, just to be clear, I didn't say — or even imply, if you read my post carefully — most members aren't computer savvy. Far from it. Just because someone is computer savvy doesn't mean they would necessarily choose to read a magazine online in preference to a paper one. I spend probably 6 hours a day working on a computer and rely on it for my income so am 'savvy'. But I would much prefer to read a book or magazine in a comfy chair or in bed.

[Uncle Henry]

I'm not convinced that would satisfy the majority of our members, or to be fair to those who do not yet feel the need to embrace the digital world.

Not a direct implication, granted.

But those who insist on keeping the modern world at arms length could be considered as holding progress back. In the big wide world, like it or not, you will get left behind if you don't embrace the new normal. For example, the Forum's problems stemed mostly from its inability to accept images easily - there was a whole process necessary to upload an image, that the system deemed too large. As a result, people moved on to the new, ie Facebook. It didn't help when the likes of Photobucket decided to charge for using their image hosting service. Now, with the hard work of those such as John Ross, among others, I can upload an image to the Clubs space directly from my phone, without obvious size restrictions. The Forum is now a much better place, and is becoming more like its old self. Progress. Modern thinking. Modern methods. Keep up, or shrivel on the vine. If I hadn't embraced the Modern in my chosen trade, I'd still be using a pump screwdriver, instead of battery power, hammer and nails, instead of nail-guns or modern adhesives, and a water-level instead of a laser. And I'd have been too expensive, and too slow to employ. Progress. It requires embracing.

AG

[John A Ross]

Paul

I love the ideas and the thinking.

At its core I take the idea on board as knock it down and start again. A drastic but sometimes very effective strategy where progress is held up by conflict, indecision, or sometimes just pure frustration of "making do".

Kind of like restoring an imp

Even if it does not fly, pulling on some of the threads it unravels might yield some good ideas to investigate. Some of the comments I expected were first up, others seem to have been left alone as I guess folks are not ready to embrace where that leadsl

It would be good to investigate the possibility though, I think if given enough energy it might yield benefits in other areas even if the feasibility study yields a no-can-do conclusion.

The fiscal implications and new financing model would need a clear case and measured against the ability to raise funds which after knocking some doors recently requires substantial resources for a 1 in 50 return of unknown level.

It is similar to cold calling, you will close 1 in 5 validated leads, to get 5 validated leads you need 50 good leads, to get 50 good leads you need to knock 4-5x that amount of doors. Granted the model changes for niche areas like club interests or charities but also relies on a good brand and marketing presence so folks know the brand without having to explain.

In the clubs case those that would see mutual benefit from the club or marque association do not even number in the 100's so part of the survey would need to be the viability of the front runners to support

You can count me as being against the framework itself at this time, but NOT the idea or any spin off ideas it spawns, I simply do not see the case yet as to how it would work and of course I am quite cautious of the resources this would take to keep going annually and counting up resources based on some of my experience and current stretched resources and skill sets I cannot see it being sustainable.

I am a free the world kind of guy in case no-one noticed , I love it but reality is everything revolves around £££

Income wise (unvalidated !!!) i estimate the clubs’ income is about £35k with about £30k costs, the vast majority of which is the magazine cost.

Increased membership costs are inevitable, like everything else costs have gone up and they need covered.

Very hard calculation as to how much to raise it, folks who would normally pay every year have a reason to pause, think, consider their own increasing costs, and perhaps decide to quit. The magazine is not that much of an essential these days, heat, light, fuel, childcare, grandkids or even just eating.

Of course, the alternative is to look to save the same amount a raise would provide, a £4 increase would be about £5K

In my own opinion spares need left alone and out of the equations, there is plenty funding via generous donations that would finance parts for the next decade. It should also be a member benefit, not a revenue source, at present as I and other have mentioned, parts are available cheaper elsewhere.

Nationals only ever seem to gain or lose a small percentage, over time they average out, leave them alone.

Insurance wise I am unsure the amounts quoted are in fact true but seem extremely high, previous quoted amounts were £1.5/head <2K) and as far as i know the club saved a bit and got better terms agreed by sourcing independently.


Certainly some serious work in the £££ calculations needed Paul.

I am sure some serious discussion is under way already as to how to cut costs or increase membership fees and of course there is one substantial fee which would negate any membership increase if removed or suitable volunteers recruited in lieu of paid professional services.

Richards experience at the AOC would be good to call on for comparison, I liked their idea of a 6-month paper issue and interim digital releases

.

[andy]

I have followed all the posts here with great interest, now as one who is clearly shrivelling on the vine.
So I thought, as we were asked, I would share my thoughts for what they are worth, If you disagree with any or all of them that's fine.
Personally I don't think there is too much wrong with the Club the average age seems very high and I guess that's because we have all grown up together and that's nice. This happens in many/most of the clubs and societies I have been in and sooner or later it will tip the other way, sometimes gradually and seamlessly and sometimes in a great devastating rift, maybe we could be more accommodating to the thoughts/wants of new members, rather than just saying If you want it you do it.
I don't and wont do Facebook, so know nothing of what goes on there, but if that's what people want why fight against it and try and control it.
I look at the forum regularly and some of the stuff is very interesting, but there is not a lot of it any more, I guess its all on FB.
I would not be interested in an online copy of Impressions, I don't read the ones I get from other groups I belong to, I really look forward to receiving and reading my paper copy.
With increasing Social Media it appears to me that Area Centres (with some very notable exceptions) have far less appeal and need than they used to and the structure is there so that if an active AC is what members want it will happen.
I think Nationals are now very hard to organise at an area centre level far harder than they were (and yes I have been heavily involved in a couple) it is a huge undertaking and getting worse year on year. I did suggest at a committee meeting that things like toilets, showers, PA, marquee, bookings, contracts etc be managed at committee level with national contracts like provide this service for 4 of the next 5 years where we tell you with 12 months notice, most of these companies offer a UK service and would take a load off the AC organisers, leaving ACs to find venue and run the event. It didn't get any support, but I include it here just for fun.

If reading this turns feels like a few minutes of your life that you will never get back, sorry.

Andy

[John A Ross]

Andy

Do not let Dom hear you saying no socials

All good but the topic was the future and like it or not we want to attract more than the current closed and captive audience, socials are a big part of that whether its promoting the club as an organisation, national as an event, NEC events, or even AC's would benefit out of the "local suggestions" that get filtered to newsfeeds by big brother when looking for "whats on near me"

I suggeested to Scott when he took over as ACCO about featuring each AC in turn once per month and pointing the wider world and new people to the meetings and the idea is parked for now. An area centre promoted once per month with a 3 week countdown for meetings ?

Other than a closed audience and circulation the magazine even in digital format has limited impact on attracting anyone as anyone receiving it is already a member, ACOs can organise as many meetings as they like but how do they attract new visitors, build it and hope they will come ?

As I used to say to some reps we had, dont spend 3 weeks a month with existing customers, we have those, spend 1 week with them, make sure they are happy and go find more the rest of the time....

I feel we need to be looking at channels that get the club and ACs noticed to build on the work and reward the hard work ACOs do, without people actually having to cyber stalk them to make contact.

I actually like Pauls ideas, I know many places that actually do this and/or a mixed model to provide great member benefits AND donate some proceeds to charity and this takes a lot of work and dedication.

They succeed by spreading the word actively through all available channels (especially scoials) and having lots of doors slammed in their face, lots of ney sayers saying they will fail and intimately familiar with the word no, but they still push forward.

The club other than staying with the satus quo in my view has lost the drive and made a grave error in not engaing socials growth and other media channels a decade ago.

When I look at the age reported by the core membership it greatly concerns me the club is now in pipe and slippers mode (like myself ) waiting for the end by a cosy fire.

I think we have enough energy left to stoke the fire a bit more

As you dont use socials you will not have seen the job Paul Woodford has done for the Clan and in turn the COC, what a job, you cant turn a corner now without some mention of the Clan, which Clan are you, Team Clan...... almost makes me want to buy one ! (almost)

How fantastic would it be to not turn a corner online and see The Imp Club, view media and see the logo, ..... and when we have the oppertunity we need to capture that audience and turn them into members, another challenge.

One example I can think of is your own website, I love it and probably visit that more often than the Imp Clubs own site.

The hits that gets is quite impressive and it would be great if you could find a way to work mutually with the club to get the club logo and link to join the club in there somewhere ?

Out of every thread pulled another oppertunity can present itself

.

[ImpManiac]

Paul, in your list above, whether by accident or design, you have not included Impressions, the production and postage of which is a major club expense so surely cannot be omitted from such a list of member benefits. How do envisage that being paid for with free membership? Or do you see it as being ditched or maybe replaced by an online alternative not requiring printing or postage? I'm not convinced that would satisfy the majority of our members, or to be fair to those who do not yet feel the need to embrace the digital world.

Hi Grahame,

Certainly not by design. More by omission. Impressions is important to a large proportion of members. It is not my place, nor my intention, to suggest that it is dropped.

Free membership is presented as an idea - nothing more. It is a means of stimulating discussion on here about how it could perhaps be achieved. I do think it could work, but it would require an enormous effort. Finding sponsorship for Impressions, etc. I would imagine that a number of companies might consider advertising in a magazine intended for classic vehicle enthusiasts - lifestyle, holidays, insurance, etc.

Events could be self-funding by charging for entry. That includes our annual national meet.

These are merely ideas, but this thread is all about ideas and constructive debate.

The idea of a 'zero build,' though, is a powerful one. Start with a blank sheet of paper. Start with the basics, and then build the Club from there. What do we need? What is our value-add? What do we stand for? What does The Imp Club want to be? Those are important questions.

The present model for the Club has worked for a long while, but it may not work forever. Or it may, even given the changes driven by technology that we are witnessing today. I certainly hope that the Club thrives, which is why I am a member. Compared with other car clubs, we are in a great position!

IM

[impmann]

Events could be self-funding by charging for entry. That includes our annual national meet.

T

IM

TBH, the Nationals are already chargeable entry - as are other events. They are getting expensive too...

As for Free Membership - its definitely achievable. Other organisations (such as Retro Rides) have blazed that trail - and they've also challenged the accepted idea of what a "car club" actually is/was. I did suggest this as something to consider about five or so years ago but there was a lot of negativity because folks didn't want banner adverts etc and so I doubt greatly that anything was ever looked into... but I definitely think its worth consideration, still. It then silences the argument about non-members getting something for nothing... permanently.

[Grahame59]

As for Free Membership - its definitely achievable. Other organisations (such as Retro Rides) have blazed that trail - and they've also challenged the accepted idea of what a "car club" actually is/was. I did suggest this as something to consider about five or so years ago but there was a lot of negativity because folks didn't want banner adverts etc and so I doubt greatly that anything was ever looked into... but I definitely think its worth consideration, still. It then silences the argument about non-members getting something for nothing... permanently.

Tim, absolutely agree that 'virtual' clubs such as Retro Rides work, and work well. I am a member of a local free car club (Storrington and District Classic and Sportscar Enthusiasts, aka SADCASE) which works well and has numerous runs and meetings throughout the year, which are actually superb due to the variety of cars catered for. However, being non-marque specific, such clubs do not source, manufacture or sell spares. So how would you envisage the Imp Club finance its spares if it went virtual and free, thereby saying goodbye to its current and not inconsiderable revenue stream? Granted some Imp spares suppliers (e.g. Malcolm and Graham Anderson, new and secondhand spares respectively) could sell their parts much as they do at present but we as a club do help finance a lot of spares lines in addition, paid for by our members.

And of course there are marque specific clubs which are purely virtual – I am a member of the Mini R53 Club but that is a relatively modern car so has no need – yet – to supply spares. It's a huge club and is Facebook based which has made it a victim of its own success IMHO; it has so many members that it is impossible to find anything on the FB site. If you see something interesting, half an hour later it has totally disappeared as 1000 (mostly banal and trivial) posts have since appeared! Consequently, although I joined the club when I bought the car (it was free so nothing to lose) I soon became frustrated and am completely inactive on it. If it wasn't free I'd have left. So, not a patch on our club.

Please note I am not being negative in the slightest towards your post, but am curious how the Retro Rides model could work for a one-marque classic car club. Or let me rephrase that, how could it work better than what we have now?

[John A Ross]

Grahame / Paul / Tim

It all comes down to money right ? and how much we need to raise (resources required) to cover running costs.

We either need to find the money or save the money

Which means radically looking at what costs money and see if it can be replaced, less we spend, less we need to raise, more achievable as the goal.

Spares

I dislike the idea of Bobs efforts with spares continually be pointed at as a "revenue stream" as it should be a member BENEFIT service and as such sould only run a "profit" to sustain itself and sustain ONLY spares. Not prop up the club overall but increasing margins.

Is it a member benefit if I can buy from another retailer cheaper ? which is the case at present.

We need to be careful we do not devalue this vital benefit by using it as any kind of assured revenue stream as to do that the only way would be to apply additional large margins and ask members to pay over the odds.

One idea already suggested a long time ago by someone else, I suggested it again a few years back yet again, is that Spares should be spun out / ring fenced as its own self sustaining entity, it can easy sustain itself and can easy subsidise parts is needed to give back to loyal members using the service. May even be possible insurance wise to sell to anyone with club members buying at a discount.

Income and Expentiture

Without counting the change and getting in a tussle over a few points here or there I estimate the club perhaps pulls in 35k annually and spends about £25K+ mostly on the magazine ?

Another note it is also a paid for service which I am sure we could find a true volunteer to do some of that and that would wipe substantial overheads.

Same for printed distribution, 11 magazines when folks used to receive 12 for same money I think ? so over the past decade that benefit has beeen reduced.

Richards AOC model of 6 months printed and 6 months digital delivery would reduce costs but the churn rate is unkown and a pure guess from any angle.

Free the world model

Loads of work and some serious belt tightening and planning needed around all expenditure and I do not think we would end up with anything better or increase membership in a good way.

Membership if/when it grows could end up being a noose around our necks as it will increase our need for yet more sponsers and support money to raise. We could be the victim of the success rather than a beneficiary and all the volunteer work to raise funds would only end up paying for what the new mebers receive.

Like I said to Graham Townsend when he was frustrated at the response to updating email adresses, only thing that usually brings people out in droves is something for free

Then and Now

Like has already been said, I love the free world model but think we need to stick with paid subscriptions model we have now (just make it better and slicker) and take perhaps the belt tightening route and trying to deliver more true member benefits for the money.

That goal I see as being the same path as the free world one and might even pave the way in years to come..

The memberships we have from the current recruitment pool is hovering on stable but close to decline

I do not see raising membership fees as the answer

I do not see leveraging a member benefits such as spares to the point it no longer being a benefit and just a revenue stream to prop up current expenditure

I do see a need to look at what is being spent and knock that down and look again.

I do see a need to group together all things magazine and procure as a single source rather than distributed expenditure and responsibility. It is easier to present to members and manage.

I do see a need to create a new alternate membership level and look in alternate recruitment pools for new members using every tool in the box, print, digital, media, advertising..... benefits and costs to be


Add all the ideas to the list the list is gorwing teeth, fangs, talons and now breathing fire. and I am sure the meeting in March will be eventful.

.

[moose]

Don't forget everyone the meeting this Sunday. Lets make it a positive if you have a problem make sure you have a solution to suggest, so things can be assessed, discussed and valid reasons for making it happen or not explained.

[Cali Simon]

Preamble:
I’m brand new to the committee, a newbie to Imps, and prior to Roy’s Impressions plea for help in January, I was only aware of positive comments about the club, oblivious to (1) “less positive” comments (2) real understanding of the lack of support to the committee. I come with no baggage, just hope.
What I see:
• As a member, certainly here on the south coast, I am really enthused about the youngsters getting into their Imps, spending time and money reviving/upgrading their cars, and of course we want to encourage them, without alienating, or in anyway undermining the membership that has kept the Imp alive for many decades. The younger generation have grown up, and my generation accustomed to, instantly available services, usually on-line, with minimum touch points or their own effort/input; right or wrong, it is what we get.
• As a newbie committee member, I had no realisation of the amount of back office work the committee do, until I began to see them in action, and I think I have barely scratched the surface yet. If I as reasonably savvy 58yr old wasn’t aware (or didn’t think about it enough), I can imagine a high percentage of the membership don’t realise either. Do these people get sufficient recognition for a job well done? I think maybe Impressions could have a feature every month on a different committee member, to tell the members what they've done for the club over the previous 12 months, and publicly acknowledge them, award them a T-Shirt or mug or something once a year to say thank you.
What I perceive and have read in previous comments:
This fantastic club is, in the grand scheme of things, pretty small (perfectly formed!). We are unlikely to be on our own facing the challenges of membership expectations v’s volunteers and committee support, similar to other clubs I imagine (TVR owners club? Triumph Sports Six Club? other perfectly formed British classic car clubs, particularly for marques that no longer trade?).
An idea:
Do we approach other clubs and see if they are similarly challenged? Should we consider (cringe if you might as you read this..) creating a 'British Leyland' style of car clubs? Each club retaining its marque identity, but an overarching – paid for – committee who run the clubs as a job, providing a service to the members? Using the example of the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club, it is a BIG organisation, committee comprising paid for staff and volunteers – simply because they have the size and scale. However, within the club, each model (E-Type, Flagship Mk10’s, Moderns etc) has its own team – I imagine the MG Owners club has thrived in a similar vein. In the model I’m suggesting, if we combined with other clubs, each marque or club could be seen as unique, but benefit from the shared resources of a common paid-for team, providing services of membership, finance, events, on-line, magazine, marketing and advertisements etc. Basically, this is a type of business model. Logo That Polo show that the model they employ for providing our merchandising regalia etc works for them commercially, because they do it for many different car clubs, as a scalable merchandising service.
Happy for all to laugh (or cry!) at this model, I am not wedded to it in any way, putting it out there as an idea, the more ideas we have, the more to choose from right?
What I do know is that when you start a business (or a club), you ask yourself what are you here for - the goal (reading all the previous comments, the "fun" word should be in there somewhere!)... we should revisit this question now. You also ask yourself who are your customers (our membership) and what are the things you need to do to achieve those things for your customers. Then work out what is needed to achieve these things, the resources, including most importantly the people needed.
Alternatively, you turn it on it's head, look at the people you have got, the time they are prepared to commit and in what areas, work out what services they could provide and then ask the customers (our membership) are they interested in it?

[impmann]

Observation - your idea of an overbranching "BL" style of car club... we already have this: the ARCC (Association of Rootes Car Clubs). Whilst a lot of recent efforts have been to do with preserving the drawings and raising money for the Archive Centre, the ARCC should hold that sort of role.

Good luck in the role, mate.

[keanej]

There has been mention of paid for roles but I do wonder if people really understand what this would mean in reality ?

If we take a full time role with a modest salary of £30k a year, with on costs of pensions contributions, corporate NI, payroll, HR, sickpay, IT equipment, training etc. that equates to a cost of around £50k to the organisation - if we have 1500 members that works out at an uplift in membership fees of £33 each.

Personally I don't think you would get a media savvy marketing manager for £30k, it would cost much more, so I really don't see how paid roles work, which is why I really appreciate all the work our volunteers do to keep the club working so well.

[moose]

Hi John good point, It could mean we are a customer to a media savvy person who is self employed and looks after other clubs interests as well so we just contribute to their salary.

[John A Ross]

Currently I believe membership stands at 1,200 and around 1,100 of which are paid for since I seen the last seen records which is down from the 1,500 then 1,300 that I recall from previous years when the subject came up.

It is in decline while costs go up.

But John K is right, to engage a marketing professional, an IT professional or actually anyone with professional skills that could contribute on a regular but part time basis could hit upwards of 35k a year which out of the clubs total revenue from subscriptions based on 1100x24 as a rough budget is even at present, a big reach and the gap filled in from other areas.

We already have 1 paid role we know of, nowhere near those costs but still very significant and deemed neccessary, I am unsure if there are anymore. I can see an increase being needed just to support things as they are.

Phil would need to be the one to asnwer things definitively if anyone has queries.

Asking a professional to contribute time for the love of it will bring up the query as to why paid roles already exist while they have been asked to contribute their professuional services and time for free. It basically demotes their efforts to being of little value which is not a great point to have brought up when recruiting

There was many 100s of man hours spent on exploring alternate membership solutions and launch platforms from professionals or semi-professionals and say we put a stake in the ground of 250 man hours at average professional rates of say £70/h thats a club conribution of £18k almost.

Put in Phil, Graham T, Bob A, Karen C into the mix and clock up the hours per year and to replace those with paid roles is not on the cards but those roles are critical ones.

If the efforts are deemed neccesary then its simply gonna cost money.

Unfortunately a lot of the ideas, how and why how revolves around £££ and as I mention again, RIchard M mentioned the AOC have made paid roles work for the AOC so there must be some lessons their to be learned or they have just been lucky enough to find the right people to generate the right results.

The club is very lucky to have such large reserves and a team of genuine volunteers to hold the ship together

To get the right people for marketing I see the only route as being recruitment from grad/post grad uni pools for someone looking to make their bones and stand out from the crowd when job hunting. That would be little or no cost and both sides get something out of the deal that works for them and thats the best kind of deal.

.

[chairman@theimpclub]

The scheduled 'open' meeting on 'The Future of the Imp Club' went ahead yesterday (Sunday March 5th) as planned. Many thanks to all those who attended and took part. It would have been nice to see more people involved but there was a good discussion of many of the various issues raised on this Forum and elsewhere.

A summary of the meeting and its main conclusions will be produced and posted here and through the Club's other media channels. The points raised will be considered by the Committee and actioned where appropriate and practical.

Roy Blunt
Chairman - The Imp Club

[John A Ross]

Glad it went well Roy and kind of surprised it was not swamped, I thought it would be.

.

[andy]

A summary of the meeting and its main conclusions will be produced and posted here and through the Club's other media channels. The points raised will be considered by the Committee and actioned where appropriate and practical.

Any update on this summary? for those or at least me, that could not make the call

Andy

[19James]

Hi everyone
First post in probably 10 years, a good mate alerted me to the fact my name had been mentioned a few times.

When I go racing the imp club never really springs into my mind.
I love racing the car because I’ve been around them since I could walk and talk. Being the underdog in a hotly contested series is so exciting but it is mega hard work trying to be up the front in a small engined car.

If people are keen to see the imp up the front of the grid and the imp club name mentioned more I would more than happily accept a set of tyres in return for some more publicity.

Brands hatch is 2 weeks away and is going to be a big meeting for the imps, 5 are entered to be there and that’s more than there has been at one meeting for probably 7-8 years? (HSCC was always the big one but that’s died a death).

Hope everyone is well, look forward to seeing everyone at the 60th do and in Scotland for the national.

If anyone wants a passenger ride I’ll stick a seat in mine for Knockhill and you can experience a true 60’s touring car.

James Ibbotson

[19James]

PS

Currently I race on everyone else’s second hand tyres, imagine how fast I could be on new rubber!

[moose]

Welcome back James. I am currently gathering info on who is competing in motorsport so the website can be updated. Any info you have on the race side would make my job easier in raising the profile on imps in motorsport.


Andy I have asked the committee to produce the summary I have been told it is in progress, may have to let the bank holiday weekend pass.

[19James]

Hi Mike
Hope you’re well mate. Been fitting a few of your polybush mounts over this weekend, lovely bits of kit

CTCRC calendar is as follows.

Brands hatch indy - 22nd 23rd April.
Castle Combe - 17th 18th June.
Brands hatch GP and Indy super touring meet - July 1st 2nd.
Croft - August 12th 13th
Snetterton 300 - September 16th 17th.
Donington GP - October 14th 15th

James ibbotson.

[moose]

Cheers James. I am good hope you are too. Another mount was posted to you yesterday.