Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by ImpManiac »

Welcome to the forum! :D You are in the right place for knolwedgeable Imp rallyists! Some of the guys on here ought to write a book!

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by Rod »

Hi, I keep making the point, we need someone to write a full history of the Rootes/Chrysler/Talbot Comps. dept. Is there no one out there?

Good to see you on the Imp forum Tony.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by rally clan »

Hi Tony
Can you clear up the saga about the Air Scoops on the body of the car pre 68. I know they were on some rear windows, but its the body ones I am interested in.
I am going ahead with putting them on my car anyway, but I would prefer if I knew they were fully legal.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by rje »

The factory did not use sliders on perspex windows AFAIK they threw away the winding mechanism but ran the window (perspex) in the normal channels attaching a length of webbing to the fitment on which the winding mechanism would usually bear. At the end of the webbing they had press studs (like the ones used on certain types of hoods) which meant that the window could be fully or partly closed.

Tony are you sure about the carb input scoop being large and the oil cooler small, was it not the other way around. All the photos I have show the latter but they are all 1967 or later. I'm glad you've cleared up the date issue, does that mean, in your opinion and without the commitment of your former employees, that the MSA would be likely to accept the use of scoops for UK historics then?

On another point can you remember the registration number of the car you had that would have been Rosemary's and do you have any photos - I am trying to collect photos of all the Works cars.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by rje »

Tony
If it was Rosemary's Alpine car it must at one time have been EDU710C (65 Alpine), 4525KV (66 Alpine), JDU48E (67 Alpine) unless it was one of the recce cars. Bonhams recently tried to claim that Roy Fiddler drove 48E on the '67 Alpine but he didn't be drove 46E. 4525KV was written off in 67 and EDU was sold to Paul Burch in 67 so you may be able to work it out from that, of course the factory was doing what everone else was doing with identities so who knows.

A question - what does Appendix J say about engine capacity and carburettors for period F - going down the line of Gp3 (Homologation 526) is very restrictive as the limitation is to Strombergs the later Appendix J as it relates to Gp 2 allows over-boring to the class limit and carbs are free, does this also apply to Gp 2 pre 31/12/65
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by rje »

Tony
Thanks, this has been a difficut issue for anyone trying to get FIA papers for a long time. You probably know that Rootes were using 998s on events from mid 1964. On the Monte of 1965 Tiny Lewis's car ran a 998 with a 'deep' (semi-downdraft ports - like on a 5-bearing engine) head and webers (documentary evidence available) on 4526KV and on the Alpine in July of that year Rosemary's car (EDU710C) ran as 998cc with front discs (works movement order confirms) and with an auxiliary front radiatior. Also, the homologation production total for Gp 3 was reached in November of 1965 as stated (albeit that the papers are dated 1 Feb 1966). Arguing for the top spec for period F (with evidence) would then be 998cc, auxiliary front rad, B/V head and webers. Period G homologation 5016 running to Gp 2 spec gets you the best spec as far as I can see = 998 to best spec + webers (Appendix J), front discs and full size front radiatior (no rear rad or fan). I spoke with John Hopwood about this last year and sent him a spec but as the car still isn't finished I haven't taken it further. UK/MSA 1967 spec is obviously much more free. What do you think, would any of the above cut the ice with the FIA?
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose »

Tony and John this is great info, does it need passing to Paul Loveridge so he can update his website with the info mentioned here?

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose »

The regs for the Rally of the Tests say :

Quote:
The trigger for the LT current inside the distributor (mechanical points) may be replaced with one of the simple magnetic or optical systems available. No other modifications are allowed to the distributor and the ignition timing may only be varied by the standard vacuum and/or mechanical means. It is prohibited to use any other method or component to trigger, distribute or time the ignition.


Hello Tony
does this mean early type electronic ignition is allowed or going to be for pre-67 classic rallying or just a one off for this event, Mr Loveridge nearly stopped me from doing the scotch corner rally many years ago he let me run as i was not in a championship. has someone come up with the evidence that electronic ign was available pre-67? the above quote was picked up from classic rally chat.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose »

cheers Tony i suspected as much but i thought that something had changed when i saw the info on the rally of the tests, it would be nice if it could be waivered as the quality of points and condensors these days is not as good, do you think there is any performance gain? i would suggest there is compared to using new points etc but no gain compared to say running the old unobtainable quality points say from a cooper S with the 32 oz points. you would only gain reliability.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Meltdown »

The factory did not use sliders on perspex windows AFAIK they threw away the winding mechanism but ran the window (perspex) in the normal channels attaching a length of webbing to the fitment on which the winding mechanism would usually bear. At the end of the webbing they had press studs (like the ones used on certain types of hoods) which meant that the window could be fully or partly closed.
I know I'm picking up old threads, but I bought some bits in the early 90s which contained perspex windows fitted with the above webbing. It came from Steve Vokes' rally imp campaigned late 80s early 90s. Twenty years after the topic's interest, but he may know more about where they came from... Don't know if he's on this forum so contact his friend 'Ibbo'.

Regarding sliding windows I doubt Imps would have fitted such a retrograde item (minis had them in 59 but soon converted to 'keep-fit' type). Of course I may be wrong...
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by krm57 »

Hi,

I am considering fitting a front radiator and doing away with the standard rad altogether. Will this be ok for stage rally regs?

I am also thinking about an electric pump rather than standard one. Could I do away with the belt driven pump or would this need to be retained.

Hope someone can help.

Thanks
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by ImpManiac »

I must confess that the regulations for motor sport confuse me at the moment. :oops: I need to keep referring back to them when taking desicions on modifications to my Chamois.

I think that the regs for historic rallies forbid the removal of the rear radiator, IIRC. Someone on here will be able to quote the relevant clause of the MSA blue book. :) I think that the same regs also forbid the removal of the existing pump, although I am not sure whether or not one could remove the rotor inside the pump and run an electric pump too.

I have no rear radiator fitted. But my car is also in a two-tone paint scheme that is non-original, so I am already outside the historic rally regs. I don't know where I would stand in terms of local motor club-type events, though. I don't think they are so, err, up tight about stuff. :roll: I have an electric water pump to fit at some point too.

Perhaps I should stick to my convictions and build the hillclimb and sprint car that I always wanted rather than try to keep it as widely eligable as possible... :?

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Lotus-e-Clan »

Paul
Will your car be ready for Pat's Dad's Curborough sprint/track day in late September?
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose »

http://www.hrct.co.uk/

big debate at the moment on NESCRO type clubmans events about certain styles of event having to run on modern night rally permits (RAC MSA introducing more restrictions for night rallies like size of spot lights) so load of confusion out there on what your car can do.

Paul if you leave the car colour scheme as is it will only restrict you from any event run on a road rally permit, just check the regs before entering, anyone interested in finding out more try classic rally chat.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by ImpManiac »

Alas not a chance, Peter. :( The problem is not so much time now as money. It is a real shame. I am extremely keen to get into motor sport and get the car set up better and this track day would have been a great opportunity to progress that.

Hopefully well before next Spring I will be back on the road in the Chamois. :wink:

EDIT - Cheers, Mike. I shall take a look.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Rod »

The engine bay photo on the hrct website shows just a rear header tank with no rear rad. so that would seem a good indication. The Rally Imp homologation has provision for just a small supplementary rad at the front so early works cars would have presumably retained the rear rad.

The onus is on whether or not cars ran like that in period, not sure what the norm would have been pre-67 although I've always assumed that front rad, rear header and no rear rad was acceptable. Both my rally Imps were rallying in the early '70's with no rear rad so this set up would be acceptable for pre-74.

I believe the electric water pump is a comparitively recent innovation, so wouldn't be acceptable.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by krm57 »

Thanks, those replies are useful. I had seen the picture of the car on the historic site but was unsure if that was legal. As for the pump would it be ok to run an auxiliary pump if the original was present but disconnected?

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose »

Keith if you read Paul loveridges site with all the allowwed mods you will see his favourite statement prove it or remove it so an elec pump was never proved to have been used before the 67 cut of date or the later dates i suspect this applies for HRCR events inc british championship rounds, if you compete on the NESCRO events i doubt anyone would protest you using an elec pump as an auxciliary if you retained the original and only had the elec one cut in on the same switch as the elec fan. To be honest i don't think if you removed the pump completly and just ran an elec pump anyone would say anything but there are marginal HP gains removing the pump but pressing the middle pedal 2 secs later would probably gain you the same. The biggest HP gain is to ditch the manual fan off the back of the pump i ran for a time with the elec pump as a safety feature but it was never used the manual pump worked fine and i have over 100bhp 998 Hartwell motor. what is your concern over the manual pump
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by krm57 »

I thought that the fan would be a big waste of hp so getting rid of everything would be sensible. I see that a front rad was homologated as an auxiliary so that seems the best way to go and just retain the pump.

Thanks again
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by ImpManiac »

bbanning wrote:Hi, I have just been shown this site albeit 2 years late.
Better late than never! :D Welcome to the forum, Bernard!

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by The Nun »

Rsimps wrote:Any ideas on seats and where to mount a cage? Also I don't think I could run 70 profile tyres as they wont fit under the arches with 13" wheels.
Dave Weedon (Impecunious) on here, will know all that for certain.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Rod »

Rsimps wrote:Does anyone know if anyone rallied a Clan with the Viva disc brake conversion on the front, in the post historic period. My Dad's old 73 rally Clan is sat there doing nothing and its pretty much to Rally spec (Luff shell), 998, twin webbers, R21 cam, reg pattern head, front rad, monte springs, strengthened cross member and wishbones etc. It would need a new cage making and some seats making that are FIA approved, I think Motordrive can probably make some to spec. Any ideas on seats and where to mount a cage? Also I don't think I could run 70 profile tyres as they wont fit under the arches with 13" wheels.
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would come in but for what it's worth....

Imps can run on 65 profile due to the lack of availability of suitable tyres, don't know if that helps. Regarding discs, we have debated somewhere the value of using them (oh I think that was on Facebook) presumably Andy Dawson and Alan Conley would have run them in period? Regarding a roll cage, the Clan was supposedly manufactured with a built in structure so one was unnecessary back in the day. I ran my Saab 96 with only a rear cage, as I recall the front pillars were considered strong enough to make a front cage redundant and SD didn't even make one! Times have changed.

It would be great to see a Clan out on rallies. :D Clan002

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by bks974c »

The exemption that allows Imps to use 65 profile applies to gravel tyres only.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming »

Rod wrote: Regarding a roll cage, the Clan was supposedly manufactured with a built in structure so one was unnecessary back in the day.


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Not all Clans though, and the papers that were issued for Clans were withdrawn after a dispute over the numbers built
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Ian Fisher »

Clan on Historic Stage Rallies

Hi Guys,
I ran a 1971 K-reg Clan on the 2001 Ypres Historic and won my class, albeit against not much competition!
I sold it and it is in Ireland now, but I still have a photocopy of the HRVIF I obtained for it.
Basically, it was the same mechanical spec as my 998 Historic Imp - Viva discs, Webers, front rad, rear RAC springs, etc.
The steel cage main hoop attached to the rear suspension crossmember, the front legs curved inwards across the floor stopping at the tunnel and attached to two big steel plates (a foot square?) in the footwells. Can't remember where the rear legs went.
It was an ex-race car with a Luff shell so had a big tunnel and wide sills. The seats (don't think there were the same dating rules then) only just fitted in. It was all very tight!
If I can answer any questions for you, please ask or PM me.
Regards,
Ian Fisher
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by edwardlinton »

Please could you help me?
I Rallied in the late 70's in an Imp.
Would you have any old photos of my car.
I have attached pics of the Imp.
Many Thanks
Ed Linton
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