Spaceframe Imps

maguire imp · Post by **maguire imp** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:47 pm

OK bring on the orders,imps have never been a cheap car no motorsport is my engine and box would cost todays prices 10 thousand pounds yes that right 10 thousand pounds but its a full blooded out and out racer,i would put it up against alot of more powerful machinery on track and i would be past them,if you going to build an imp to race in hts forum rules etc it will have to be fitted with a imp engine or rootes engine,i am now a member of that society and i will help what ever way i can,everyone need to see what is the way forward for them,i wont let anyone down when it comes to imps etc

Keith scott

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:48 pm

colin any chance of you being at the Ace vehicle saloons at Oulton park It may have changed its name this yrear again. be good to catch you there.

Colin talking sensible again.

knocker · Post by **knocker** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:51 pm

Well said colin and if you want someone to race with let me know,will be there.Have sorted a few pictures out so soon as i get the hang of this photobucket will post them.

big J · Post by **big J** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:57 pm

Perhaps another perspective-
hopefully Gerrys series takes off and we have good grids out racing.People look on,think that looks fun,how do I get involved and be competitive?

You can pick up a cheap Imp out the bay of death,but oftentimes,the shell will need a lot of work even for racing.

Sooooooooooo,I've been thinking................
I know,I know,I knooooooooooowwwwww

Could we maybe get some dimensions/sizes/a basic template for building a semi-spaceframe or similar?
It could provide a way for folks who cant afford 3 or 4 grand on a race engine to go faster(less weight),maybe mean that even a scrap Imp without any floor left could be reincarnated?Even with an 875 sport motor,losing 50-100 kilos would be fast enough?

A basic floorpan which could incorporate suspension pick-up points surely could be worked out?Look at what Duk is doing with his Husky.

There's plenty of home built locosts out there,a basic Imp chassis should be as straightforward?

Thoughts?

***post edited to include comments from Kevan McLurg
Erling Jensens Maguire Imp was Brian Cuttings 2nd Maguire Stiletto.His first went to Pat Mannion,this car later written off?The 2nd car sold to Phil Lomas of Mobile Windscreens,then to Erling?****

Turboimp · Post by **Turboimp** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:01 pm

some more from my archives ...

Turboimp · Post by **Turboimp** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:06 pm

A few More

Turboimp · Post by **Turboimp** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:11 pm

And some more ...

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:15 pm

mike this is for you from keith its a picture of the chimp

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:17 pm

Colin,Was it an ugly looking thing?

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:23 pm

To answer big j question on building a semi space frame car ,well my dad came up with the design of his tube work and as i was an apprentice welder at the time i welded it all into place and that was in the early 80s nothing has moved todate ,i would be willing to build semi spaceframe cars as in a copy of what i race and could be built with a 3 inch centre line chop so the maguire or jade panels would fit or standard height shell so rawlson panels ,this would probly be cheaper than going full space frame but you would need to find a half decent floor to start with

col

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:28 pm

Col thats a great starting point. As you will probaly know i think the main loop in new cars has to be certian material and thickness If anything comes to fruition. Maybe a look in the regs would be a good idea , but at least we have some progress. just need some cars LOL

maguire imp · Post by **maguire imp** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:33 pm

Colins idea is good,i may have a good floor pan i would have to look,it would be free to take if i had,that may help someone,also colin and dan rooney are very expert people with imps history has shown this we could have tin tops light panels,or semi spaceframed,or full spaceframes any thing is do able

Keith

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:47 pm

I have a man whos expert in spaceframes called anthony ross from ARD he has a stand at NEc next week, Ive spoken to him and we have had a good conversation and he wants to get involved. Hes not expensive and wants to try and get into the circuit job . Hes done some minis and other saloons but has never done an imp

I have done much spaceframing but when you are using CDS or t45 or the other spec materials you need a special bender to form the loops. once one is completed the rest are easy.

Its always tough starting from scratch, i think its always best to start off with a raced car or a nearly there project as new built cars would cost alot more and i would think to be fairly competetive with the imp engine a few quid needs spending.

Theres has to be a plan, first the shell and chassis, running gear and ancilleries then engine and gearbox. It can turn into alot of money buying all new or even a refurb.

sponsors hard to find LOL

big J · Post by **big J** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

colin rooney wrote:To answer big j question on building a semi space frame car ,well my dad came up with the design of his tube work and as i was an apprentice welder at the time i welded it all into place and that was in the early 80s nothing has moved todate ,i would be willing to build semi spaceframe cars as in a copy of what i race and could be built with a 3 inch centre line chop so the maguire or jade panels would fit or standard height shell so rawlson panels ,this would probly be cheaper than going full space frame but you would need to find a half decent floor to start with

col

That's kinda what I was wondering,Col.It's the finding a good floorpan,could a floorpan,say, be made that takes an Imp shell and front bulkhead from the top of the sills upwards?I'm thinking of the white Mason Stiletto that Alan put pictures up of.

Many shells seem to have rotten sills and rear suspension crossmembers,so maybe if a floorpan/semi spaceframe could incorporate these features,it could move a build along a lot faster than a fella having to do loads of repairs,cost and time,before even starting any race preparation?

I might be talking crap,it's just a thought?

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:00 pm

few more spaceframed cars i found in my collection

i know its not an imp but this kitten does have an imp engine car is owned by ginger marshal

and rob knox;s ray car before rob bought it

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:05 pm

Hi thats probably not the best route. Either stick with the original floorpan and semi spaceframe it like cols and some of the mason imps, or best thing to do is totally cut the floor out, make a floor section on 2x1 box mount the front and back loop off it and make a bulk head its pretty straight forward. incorporate the front and back geomitry to take the front and back suspension. then drop the steel shell onto it. From the sill top, taking the sill and floor away.

once one is done i would suspect a full spaceframe would be anything from £1000 to £1500 with all the mounting points in place. Dont get me wrong im not saying that thats how much it would be just trying to compare what i have done before and what ARD have done.

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:13 pm

No your on the mark john to do say a 3inch chop you can lose the sill and just use the floor and front bulkhead and if you wanted you can fit a full glass top so you can saveweight by getting shot of the scuttle and roof pillars ,which ever way you go its a lot of work and realy you need to be looking at useing a shell thats near on knackered as far as arches and that go ,i would think that the problem will be how much the roof,doors,rear wings and front end will be
Mike yes i know the cage would have to be upto date spec , i may just keep an eye out for a shell and build it just to test the water and see how it goes if it dosent sell i can build it up and get my old man back out just to give leo a target to chase

col

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:22 pm

Shame we arnt closer Colin, I would have gladly had a crack at it with you. Ive done it loads of times with many shells. The last one which was a 106 peugeot with a type r engine and gearbox was just a shell totally gutted no floor no boot no bulkhead and you could pick up up single handed. I made the floor brace put the cage on it and then attached all the other bars. Made up the front and then grafted a steel bulkhead back into, the body was welded to the base frame but could have been bolted , but this wasnt allowed.

The car weighed 595 which is damn good for the size of engine and box.

big J · Post by **big J** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:24 pm

Re: Spaceframe Imps

Post by colin rooney on Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:13 pm
No your on the mark john to do say a 3inch chop you can lose the sill and just use the floor and front bulkhead and if you wanted you can fit a full glass top so you can saveweight by getting shot of the scuttle and roof pillars ,which ever way you go its a lot of work and realy you need to be looking at useing a shell thats near on knackered as far as arches and that go ,i would think that the problem will be how much the roof,doors,rear wings and front end will be
Mike yes i know the cage would have to be upto date spec , i may just keep an eye out for a shell and build it just to test the water and see how it goes if it dosent sell i can build it up and get my old man back out just to give leo a target to chase

I'd love to see that all right.

Yeah,that was what I was on about,a scrap shell from a resto point of view could be reincarnated as a racer.

I agree it would be a lot of work,but sq section steel is a hell of a lot cheaper than a race engine.

It might well be a good avenue to investigate.

maguire imp · Post by **maguire imp** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:30 pm

I am going to close my garage soon for the day,alot of cars have been made today but none have been test drove as yet,let alone raced but i am hoping to dream of ten new maguire imps in a row so that you can come to take your pick of what you want,anyway i am joking and not meant to hurt anyone,ive been afan of maguire imps all my life i know nothing else,there is such a thing as drawings and they can be done in full life size to make anything this would give angles,heights,pick up points,brakes,suspension,start right finish right enough said,going to sleep to think of having an open day up here in n reland to let people see that there are genuine race imps that are used

Keith

moving on

big J · Post by **big J** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:46 pm

Open day? Just say when,I'M THERE.

****post edited to include comment from Kevan McLurg******

Spaceframe Mason Stiletto-writer can recall 10 or so semi-spaceframe cars,no further info on a spaceframe?

stuartbrownsey · Post by **stuartbrownsey** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:16 am

A couple more photo's of the continuation mason spaceframe

stuartbrownsey · Post by **stuartbrownsey** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:31 am

The top two photo's were sent to me by Tim Duffee offering new panels, so there may be more than
one set of moulds for the jedi imp. It looks to me like the wheel base is longer to allow for mid engine setup,
He lists prices on his web site for jarvis imp panels ?

The blue imp is a Davrian and some panels are available

I've contacted Brian who owns the Mason Imp and he's prepared
to let panels be taken from his moulds, not sure of the costs yet
but he would like to re-coupe some of the costs in having the moulds made in
the first place (not cheap)

chris · Post by **chris** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:45 am

tell you what Id love to have a ride in one of the proper spaceframe imps, mines quick for what it is but the weight is stopping it feel ballistic!

Would really convince me to go bike engine!

Cheers
Chris

big J · Post by **big J** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:02 am

Les Campbell just sent me some more pics,and exotic ones too!
This is a March F3 with variously a Vaux 16v or BDA/BDG? coupled to a Hewland box, then owned by Kevin Day.
Good man Les,bang on.

big J · Post by **big J** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:17 am

Stuart,could you explain what you mean by "continuation",thanks.

Chris,me too!

maguire imp · Post by **maguire imp** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:22 am

The black imp is now in ireland,i have saw it this car was tested at mira many years ago i dont know the reason why but i know it was there,there was others sets of rims on this car made from billet aluminum there were stunning,the jedi imp was featured in ccc in 1994 when it was new,its had quite a few owners now but its lived most of its life in scotland,i believe scotland has had more racing imps since there were made than anywere else in the world, it has undoubtly a wealth of knowledge,in fact the first customers maguire imp was sold in scotland to john o groats now theres something to get you thinking posters

Keith scott

Megapin · Post by **Megapin** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:50 am

Going back to Colin's post on the previous page and current interest in racing space framed cars.
I agree 100% on the interest quickly waining. This has happened before.
The re-surgance of any special saloon/modsports racing is totally reliant on where you can race your cars.
At present these cars can only race in championships like the NW saloons, NSSCC (where I race) , SMC Saloons and the Lyden Championship.
The trouble is that they are totally outclassed by modern machinery if you stick to racing with an imp engine.
Even the most expensive imp engine is unlikely to put out more than about 140bhp whereas most of the cars I have been racing against
in NSSCC put out more than 300bhp. There are two Focus race cars in Scotland both putting out more than 700bhp !
I also agree with Colin in that if you want to race a spaceframed car you need to build a new frame to current regs. ie. tube sizes that comply with current MSA
safety regs and details with adequate wall thicknesses, or you need on old modsports car that you know has been looked after 100% and totally dry stored.
Even then some scrutineers are banning older cars from racing due to old cage sizes.
My own space frame is being powered by a Hyabusa engine as I want a chance of being competitive in whatever class I race in and I know that an imp engine/box
is probably 60kg heavier and will produce 40bhp less.

I have provisionally asked Keith to put me down for a set of panels to clad the spaceframe I have so if we can get a few more orders together it may
be worth his while producing them.

Until I complete the current car I will be racing the spaceframed SC100 pictured below in NSSCC this year.

maguire imp · Post by **maguire imp** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:08 am

Thank u david for your replyin the forum,and your car looks lovely,as i said before i will do anything to help you,i have to cover my costs what ever happens be assured of my 100 per cent commitment to everyone who wants to build there own cars,we need to move forward in a sensible way and get people who really will follow though with there project cars,i have no doubt in my mind that you will

Keith scott

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:24 am

Tim duffy does have another set of moulds, ive spoken to him last week before this thread was opened, the moulds arnt in that much use, but i will keep this post updated if i here any news.

It does look however at least theres may be stuart, keith or Davrian who can do moulds. I suppose its know up to them to come back and let us have some prices.

Looking at stuarts pictures of the spacframe, this is the type of spec that is going to be needed to pass scrutineering on a new car.

I can tottally understand also the sc100 situation with the hayabusa powered car. I know the championship you are on about and its competitive. I think you would struggle to compete especially when your class is upto 1600 cc

Lets see what happens and good to see interest, although i seriously think we are going to strugle for numbers

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:26 am

I taught that suzuki was owned by a chap called andy wilson ,i take it he sold it this is the x humberstone car or is there another

col

stuartbrownsey · Post by **stuartbrownsey** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:29 am

Chris

The new spaceframe is a copy of the old one but using modern spec
tubes with the correct wall thickness, In some historic classes new
designs are banned but a continuation is acceptable if its been made
for safety reasons. If the HTS series ever gets going they will allow
continuations so Brian will be able run this car.The old frame has been retired

A few years ago I watched Knockers Maguire imp win a race outright
against a class field including cosworths and a few caterhams.
I was so excited I nearly wet myself !

Which ever type of engine you use depends where your heart is

Stuart

Richard Claydon · Post by **Richard Claydon** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:39 am

Hi Guys,

following this thread with great interest as my intention is to own a spaceframed Imp within the near future.

I'm sure if someone offered a package, a bit like the kitcar manufacturers do there would be a market (all be it a little limited - but some of the Kitcar guys work on very small volume). I for one would be up for buying a package.

I'm currently building Sylva (Jeremy Phillips) latest offering and all the basic principles are the same. Just imagine this with a full cage and an Imp shaped plastic body!

Cheers

Rich

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:49 am

Yes rich that car your building looks good and i agree it would look good with the imp body on but even better with the imp engine in the back

col

stuartbrownsey · Post by **stuartbrownsey** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:21 pm

I've just found this sketch of the basic dimensions of the mason spaceframe
I would have thought the maquire panels would also fit.

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:38 pm

I can see where people are coming from as far as bigger engines are concerned if you want to be competitive in say the nssc or any other series but ,and this is my idea if say there was 12 cars say either full or semi spaceframe car and not just imps ready to race next weekend and all fitted with the stock design block gearbox could be free so up to 1120 cc for our imps and say a few mini's with 1380cc and just say an anglia or the like , then your all fairly well matched as a good 998 imp will give a 1380 mini a good race ,you would end up with some very close racing which is what it was like back in the wendy wools series ,if you want to go down the route of say thunder saloons which i would class the march f3 chassis with imp body fitted then you end up with people who cant afford to spend thousands of pounds getting to the stage where they think ah sod it im not going to race and so this is why we are where we are today with only a hand full of imps racing ,dont get me wrong an imp can still win races as leo done last season,and rob done at lydden ,i will be out racing this year with semsec out classed and out paced by a lot of cars but in a grid of 20 cars be somewhere in the middle with the smallest engine and rob will be up in the top 4 cars as he runs 1120 so if you fancy coming to watch how quick an imp can be check out the dates at http://www.semsec.org.uk and roll on the hundreadthousand series

col

SimonBenoy · Post by **SimonBenoy** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:43 pm

Performance wise, my Rawlson in its final season was 1120cc injected with a 4 speed lowered 3rd and 4th gerabox geared for a top speed of about 110mph with an lsd. I ran soft slicks for hillclimbs/sprints, 7s and 9s I think. The engine produced about 126 brake and the weight was approx 360kg. At Santa Pod, it did a 13.5 with exactly 100 finish speed.
Aerodynamics weren't ideal and I didn't take either the handling or the brakes to a particularly high spec but it was still great fun. I once did a photoshoot at one of the airfield sites and the windscreen went wobbly at high speed as I didn't have a central brace. I sold this car to Leo and he has now moved it on again as he got the Davrian imp which is probably easier to use for circuit racing.

I will try to post some action pics if I can find any but most of the ones I have were taken by others and I don't have electronic copies.

Cheers -Simon

maguire imp · Post by **maguire imp** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:46 pm

I would love to compete to

colin find out about it for me thanks,the greatest miracles comes from the smallest of things

Keith scott

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:56 pm

Simon i think your old rawlson will be back on track soon as the chap who has it now is the 1 who built leo's davrian for him and has raced an imp before and i have heard trough the grape vine that he is after an engine and box ..

col

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:13 pm

regulation is going to dictate the design of new frames to a certain extent. Ive built and repaired space frame cars and true spaceframe chassis using many small tubes that are bronze welded are very time consuming and difficult to repair. You are better building what i would call a multi tubular design like stuarts done and try to keep it simple. this would greatly reduce the cost of a frame.I would like to think it would be better to incorporate as many imp parts in the car even if the body has never seen an imp at least it keeps it impish.ill post some pics of my car and will help anyone needing dimmensions.

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:26 pm

Welcome on board Graham

stuartbrownsey · Post by **stuartbrownsey** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:37 pm

Graham

I can't claim any credit for the new spaceframe. Its all Brians
work with the help of a good freind of his. I'm just doing the engine
and any machining requirements

Stuart

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:38 pm

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:43 pm

Hi stuart has the front been designed to take the standard pressed steel suspensinon and steering rack mounting.

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:48 pm

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:02 pm

stuartbrownsey · Post by **stuartbrownsey** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:03 pm

Graham

Yes the car is all imp based as per the original

Stuart

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:07 pm

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:10 pm

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:21 pm

Did you get the PM i sent you. thanks