Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

tony4992

Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by tony4992 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:50 pm

I'm new to this forum but I have, as they say, 'previous' when it comes to rallies and Imps. I rallied an 875 from about 1965 to 1971 when it grew up into a much lighter 998. I did Club rallies, Motoring News rallies, Autotests and Production Car Trials. I also did the Welsh International Rally 3 times with the car in Group 4 trim. 3 days breathing in Castrol R was pretty good fun! I eventually grew up myself and graduated to a Group 1 Avenger GT which became fully Webered, Bilsteined and competitive. This took me through all of the British Rally Championship and events in Belgium and Germany. A new bodyshell later I retired from competition in 1981.

In 1988 I accepted the job of Rallies Executive with the RACMSA where I stayed for 15 years and had the pleasure of being involved in the growth of Historic Rallies. Since my retirement in 2003 I have retained my links with the MSA (as it now prefers to be known) and have the pleasure of being sent Rootes Group Historic Vehicle Identity Forms for checking which includes Imps, Avengers and Sunbeams. It seems they respect my knowledge but reading this forum I think I still have a lot to learn. Please forgive me if I pick your brains if I have a query on a genuine period modification.

The purpose of this introduction is to invite any forum members to contact me if they have a query on eligibility or any other MSA related matters such as licencing etc.

Our aim is to find a 100 reasons to say yes to a modification. No will only happen in the extreme.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by ImpManiac » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:44 am

Welcome to the forum! :D You are in the right place for knolwedgeable Imp rallyists! Some of the guys on here ought to write a book!

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by Rod » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:44 am

Hi, I keep making the point, we need someone to write a full history of the Rootes/Chrysler/Talbot Comps. dept. Is there no one out there?

Good to see you on the Imp forum Tony.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by limjamrace » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:30 am

Many thanks for your post Tony...I am very glad to see someone related to the MSA giving help and building a relationship towards the Imp and any other vehicle involved in historic competition.
I do not get involved myself in rallying,but your intrduction gave me the impression of a rush of fresh air between competitors and the MSA.

History of the competitions dept! Sure i have read lots of articules over this and i was under the impression there was a journal of such!

If not then why not give those club member journalists a poke with a stick!

David L.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by mikeb » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:20 pm

hi

what a fab resource to have on the forum - you must have inspected my stiletto form last month then!!

heres a good question for you to kick off - perspex sliders - have you ever seen these being used pre 67 - the hrcr wants them taken out and I dont want to !!!

thanks

mike
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by rally clan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:08 pm

Hi Tony
Can you clear up the saga about the Air Scoops on the body of the car pre 68. I know they were on some rear windows, but its the body ones I am interested in.
I am going ahead with putting them on my car anyway, but I would prefer if I knew they were fully legal.

Regards

Alan
tony4992

Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by tony4992 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:28 pm

Hello Mike.

Yes I remember seeing your papers and if the car looks the same in the flesh as it did in the photos then congratulations to those responsible for the preparation. I hope to see it out on the British Historic Rally Championship.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by tony4992 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:40 pm

Alan.

Air scoops on the bodywork were definitely used pre 1967 as I had an ex Rosemary Smith shell from the period which had been used on the Alpine Rally among others. I bought it from a guy in Nuneaton called Bernard Banning. (Anybody remember him?).
There were three scoops attached to the body work; two on the offside and one on the nearside. A large one was just behind the driver's door and fed clean air to the carburettors. The second one on the driver's side was on the rear wing and smaller in diameter. This fed air to the oil cooler. On the nearside just behind the passenger door was a scoop similar in size to the carburettor scoop and its purpose was to feed fresh air to the nose of the gearbox. With a sumpguard and no fresh air there was a tendency for the geabox to overheat with the loss of, if I remember right, reverse gear.
I hope this helps but fell free to pm me if you need any further information.
tony4992

Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by tony4992 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:51 pm

Mike.

I'm sorry I missed your question regarding the perspex sliders. I can't, in all honesty, remember these being used on rally cars in the relevant period and thus would have to ask for photographic evidence. Remember that we used these cars for road rallies in the main and getting your timecard signed through a small hole could delay proceedings.
Wind-up perspex was about but it soon scored and went opaque.
I think this is one for the applicant to prove that that they were used on rally cars in the period. Race cars maybe but rally cars??

Regards

Tony
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by rje » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:00 am

The factory did not use sliders on perspex windows AFAIK they threw away the winding mechanism but ran the window (perspex) in the normal channels attaching a length of webbing to the fitment on which the winding mechanism would usually bear. At the end of the webbing they had press studs (like the ones used on certain types of hoods) which meant that the window could be fully or partly closed.

Tony are you sure about the carb input scoop being large and the oil cooler small, was it not the other way around. All the photos I have show the latter but they are all 1967 or later. I'm glad you've cleared up the date issue, does that mean, in your opinion and without the commitment of your former employees, that the MSA would be likely to accept the use of scoops for UK historics then?

On another point can you remember the registration number of the car you had that would have been Rosemary's and do you have any photos - I am trying to collect photos of all the Works cars.
John
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies

Post by tony4992 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:27 am

John

Your reminder about the location of the offside scoops was timely as after I posted it I went to bed and wondered if I'd had a senior moment. You are quite right and my apologies for misleading you. I have to say I am quite comfortable with scoops on Category 1 cars ie Historic. This should not automatically shove them into Category2 (Post Historic as was)

I regret no provenance for the Rosemary Smith shell. I bought it as a bit battered bare shell with no paperwork or chassis number from a guy in Nuneaton who rallied Imps himself and had close connections with Humber Road. I reshelled my knackered 1966 car and it assumed that car's identity.

I agree with you over the sliders. I would need photographic period evidence to allow them on a Category 1 rally car. Sorry Mike
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by rje » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:04 am

Tony
If it was Rosemary's Alpine car it must at one time have been EDU710C (65 Alpine), 4525KV (66 Alpine), JDU48E (67 Alpine) unless it was one of the recce cars. Bonhams recently tried to claim that Roy Fiddler drove 48E on the '67 Alpine but he didn't be drove 46E. 4525KV was written off in 67 and EDU was sold to Paul Burch in 67 so you may be able to work it out from that, of course the factory was doing what everone else was doing with identities so who knows.

A question - what does Appendix J say about engine capacity and carburettors for period F - going down the line of Gp3 (Homologation 526) is very restrictive as the limitation is to Strombergs the later Appendix J as it relates to Gp 2 allows over-boring to the class limit and carbs are free, does this also apply to Gp 2 pre 31/12/65
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by tony4992 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:02 pm

John

Thanks for the information on Rosemary Smith's cars. I have no idea which one it was but my suspicions then and now are that what I got was the discarded bodyshell that had been available due to the factory reshelling the car. Certainly it had ample evidence of having been rolled as I had to a do a lot of remedial work to make it look presentable. Clearly the factory kept the registration number so it may have been reborn with 'my' shell surplus to requirements.

Your information also strengthens my belief that the air scoops were used pre 67. I wonder if there are any pictures of the works cars on the 65 or 66 Alpine as this would confirm it.

As to your question on the cc and carburettors I will research this rather than shoot from the hip. Later Gp2 did allow overboring to class limit hence 875 to 998 and Escorts, while being 1598 being homologated as 1601 so that BDAs could go to 1800. I don't think that will help you much as you rightly say that period F did not allow very much at all.

Leave it with me and I'll get back to you.

Tony
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by tony4992 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:12 pm

John

Sorry for the delay but I have been waiting for some information from FIA Scrutineers.

Up at the top of this page you will find a pdf copy of Recognition Form 1204 which sets the specification for Period F. It's little more than a summary of what the standard car was on launch in 1963. Until 31.12.65 this is what you rallied although the factory teams were, how can I say this, somewhat creative in their interpretation. The category was called Touring rather than Group 1. That all changed for 1966 with Group 1,2,3 & 4. This enabled Rootes to 'legalise'
their cars but it's interesting to note that creativity was still alive and well in that for Recognition Form 526 they declared the manufacture of 500 cars with a 998 engine. hmm!

So if you want to stay with Group F there's not much you can do and in any case I wonder if there are many events on the International calendar that will accommodate them. Period G is more liberal; there might be more events and the fun factor probably goes up.

I hope this is of some help.

Regards

Tony
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by rje » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:27 am

Tony
Thanks, this has been a difficut issue for anyone trying to get FIA papers for a long time. You probably know that Rootes were using 998s on events from mid 1964. On the Monte of 1965 Tiny Lewis's car ran a 998 with a 'deep' (semi-downdraft ports - like on a 5-bearing engine) head and webers (documentary evidence available) on 4526KV and on the Alpine in July of that year Rosemary's car (EDU710C) ran as 998cc with front discs (works movement order confirms) and with an auxiliary front radiatior. Also, the homologation production total for Gp 3 was reached in November of 1965 as stated (albeit that the papers are dated 1 Feb 1966). Arguing for the top spec for period F (with evidence) would then be 998cc, auxiliary front rad, B/V head and webers. Period G homologation 5016 running to Gp 2 spec gets you the best spec as far as I can see = 998 to best spec + webers (Appendix J), front discs and full size front radiatior (no rear rad or fan). I spoke with John Hopwood about this last year and sent him a spec but as the car still isn't finished I haven't taken it further. UK/MSA 1967 spec is obviously much more free. What do you think, would any of the above cut the ice with the FIA?
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:53 am

Tony and John this is great info, does it need passing to Paul Loveridge so he can update his website with the info mentioned here?

regards mike
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by tony4992 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:24 pm

John

I'm pleased you have quantified what I was trying to say in a diplomatic way. Of course they were all at it! The 1966 Appendix J only legalised what was already out there.

Unfortunately the FIA would like to approve historic cars that are what they should have been whereas we all know that they weren't. I was involved in the early days of writing the MSA Regulations for Historic Rally Cars and our approach was pragmatic in that we wanted to approve anything that was period accurate. Hence 105E Anglias with pretty well any engine that Ford didn't fit to it. 1340 Classic, 1500 Cortina GT and latterly Lotus Twin Cams. Nothing to do with homologation but everything to do with the realities of Saturday night road rallies.

I think you will find that the front radiators weren't radiators at all. Try larger heater matrices: there weren't any rules about size and Des O'Dell spotted it.

For an Imp, if I was tempted back, I would go for MSA Category 1 (up to 67) You can do pretty well what you want (within reason and the rules). Lots of events in UK and I convinced Belgium some years ago who will accept MSA cars on their Tarmac Rallies. Your choice but think of the fun factor.

Finally, Paul Loveridge is your contact for MSA cars and John Hopwood is au fait with FIA cars. I know them both well and we swap information on a regular basis.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by mikeb » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:46 pm

thanks for the input on perspex sliders - I guess that they will have to come out and railway carriage type straps put in.

the car is as per the photos - thanks for the comments - although its a bit bent following the manx , but thats another story !

all the best


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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:07 am

The regs for the Rally of the Tests say :

Quote:
The trigger for the LT current inside the distributor (mechanical points) may be replaced with one of the simple magnetic or optical systems available. No other modifications are allowed to the distributor and the ignition timing may only be varied by the standard vacuum and/or mechanical means. It is prohibited to use any other method or component to trigger, distribute or time the ignition.


Hello Tony
does this mean early type electronic ignition is allowed or going to be for pre-67 classic rallying or just a one off for this event, Mr Loveridge nearly stopped me from doing the scotch corner rally many years ago he let me run as i was not in a championship. has someone come up with the evidence that electronic ign was available pre-67? the above quote was picked up from classic rally chat.

regards mike
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tony4992

Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by tony4992 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:20 pm

Mike

I suspect that this may be a one-off for the event but they need to be aware that the Supplementary Regulations for a rally cannot override the Blue Book.

I have to say that I am not aware of any pre-68 use of electronic ignition on an Imp or indeed many other cars but, of course, any documentary evidence will be useful in considering this matter. As far as Rootes were concerned it was well into the 70s before we could fit Lucas Opus to the Avengers as they eventually fitted a rudimentary electronic system to the road cars. Winding the clock back to 67 Imps does seem to me to stretching the point. I think Paul Loveridge was absolutely right but in his own style took a pragmatic view for a particular set of circumstances.

Without documentary evidence a pre 68 car with electronic ignition would be rejected.

I hope this helps.

Tony
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:33 pm

cheers Tony i suspected as much but i thought that something had changed when i saw the info on the rally of the tests, it would be nice if it could be waivered as the quality of points and condensors these days is not as good, do you think there is any performance gain? i would suggest there is compared to using new points etc but no gain compared to say running the old unobtainable quality points say from a cooper S with the 32 oz points. you would only gain reliability.

regards mike
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by lorry12er » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:24 pm

Hi Tony, just a quick question on eligibility of Imp block strengthening kits. I have a 66 car i'm trying to prep for stage rallying and was wondering if the strengthening kits out there were available back in the day?
Many thanks in advance,
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Meltdown » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:27 pm

The factory did not use sliders on perspex windows AFAIK they threw away the winding mechanism but ran the window (perspex) in the normal channels attaching a length of webbing to the fitment on which the winding mechanism would usually bear. At the end of the webbing they had press studs (like the ones used on certain types of hoods) which meant that the window could be fully or partly closed.
I know I'm picking up old threads, but I bought some bits in the early 90s which contained perspex windows fitted with the above webbing. It came from Steve Vokes' rally imp campaigned late 80s early 90s. Twenty years after the topic's interest, but he may know more about where they came from... Don't know if he's on this forum so contact his friend 'Ibbo'.

Regarding sliding windows I doubt Imps would have fitted such a retrograde item (minis had them in 59 but soon converted to 'keep-fit' type). Of course I may be wrong...
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by krm57 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:12 am

Hi,

I am considering fitting a front radiator and doing away with the standard rad altogether. Will this be ok for stage rally regs?

I am also thinking about an electric pump rather than standard one. Could I do away with the belt driven pump or would this need to be retained.

Hope someone can help.

Thanks
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by ImpManiac » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:26 am

I must confess that the regulations for motor sport confuse me at the moment. :oops: I need to keep referring back to them when taking desicions on modifications to my Chamois.

I think that the regs for historic rallies forbid the removal of the rear radiator, IIRC. Someone on here will be able to quote the relevant clause of the MSA blue book. :) I think that the same regs also forbid the removal of the existing pump, although I am not sure whether or not one could remove the rotor inside the pump and run an electric pump too.

I have no rear radiator fitted. But my car is also in a two-tone paint scheme that is non-original, so I am already outside the historic rally regs. I don't know where I would stand in terms of local motor club-type events, though. I don't think they are so, err, up tight about stuff. :roll: I have an electric water pump to fit at some point too.

Perhaps I should stick to my convictions and build the hillclimb and sprint car that I always wanted rather than try to keep it as widely eligable as possible... :?

IM 8)
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:22 pm

Paul
Will your car be ready for Pat's Dad's Curborough sprint/track day in late September?
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:53 pm

http://www.hrct.co.uk/

big debate at the moment on NESCRO type clubmans events about certain styles of event having to run on modern night rally permits (RAC MSA introducing more restrictions for night rallies like size of spot lights) so load of confusion out there on what your car can do.

Paul if you leave the car colour scheme as is it will only restrict you from any event run on a road rally permit, just check the regs before entering, anyone interested in finding out more try classic rally chat.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by ImpManiac » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:07 pm

Alas not a chance, Peter. :( The problem is not so much time now as money. It is a real shame. I am extremely keen to get into motor sport and get the car set up better and this track day would have been a great opportunity to progress that.

Hopefully well before next Spring I will be back on the road in the Chamois. :wink:

EDIT - Cheers, Mike. I shall take a look.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Rod » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:30 pm

The engine bay photo on the hrct website shows just a rear header tank with no rear rad. so that would seem a good indication. The Rally Imp homologation has provision for just a small supplementary rad at the front so early works cars would have presumably retained the rear rad.

The onus is on whether or not cars ran like that in period, not sure what the norm would have been pre-67 although I've always assumed that front rad, rear header and no rear rad was acceptable. Both my rally Imps were rallying in the early '70's with no rear rad so this set up would be acceptable for pre-74.

I believe the electric water pump is a comparitively recent innovation, so wouldn't be acceptable.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by krm57 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:03 pm

Thanks, those replies are useful. I had seen the picture of the car on the historic site but was unsure if that was legal. As for the pump would it be ok to run an auxiliary pump if the original was present but disconnected?

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by moose » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:34 pm

Keith if you read Paul loveridges site with all the allowwed mods you will see his favourite statement prove it or remove it so an elec pump was never proved to have been used before the 67 cut of date or the later dates i suspect this applies for HRCR events inc british championship rounds, if you compete on the NESCRO events i doubt anyone would protest you using an elec pump as an auxciliary if you retained the original and only had the elec one cut in on the same switch as the elec fan. To be honest i don't think if you removed the pump completly and just ran an elec pump anyone would say anything but there are marginal HP gains removing the pump but pressing the middle pedal 2 secs later would probably gain you the same. The biggest HP gain is to ditch the manual fan off the back of the pump i ran for a time with the elec pump as a safety feature but it was never used the manual pump worked fine and i have over 100bhp 998 Hartwell motor. what is your concern over the manual pump
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by krm57 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:40 pm

I thought that the fan would be a big waste of hp so getting rid of everything would be sensible. I see that a front rad was homologated as an auxiliary so that seems the best way to go and just retain the pump.

Thanks again
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by bbanning » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:31 pm

Hi, I have just been shown this site albeit 2 years late. I am Bernard Banning and I remember having an ex works shell which still had the heated screen in. But I cannot remember selling it, I built 2 works spec imps--the first was what was then group 6 with the old dashboard and the second I think to group 2 spec with the full width dash. Regarding the front rad both of them had the full width one with a cut down one in the back. What colour was the one you got from me?

I would think that if you want to know the time line of all the different mods you would be best speaking to Andy Dawson who was in the department at that time

and built and rallied imps or to Alan Knight who was in special tuning from start to finish

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by ImpManiac » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:23 pm

bbanning wrote:Hi, I have just been shown this site albeit 2 years late.
Better late than never! :D Welcome to the forum, Bernard!

IM 8)
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Rsimps » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:27 pm

Does anyone know if anyone rallied a Clan with the Viva disc brake conversion on the front, in the post historic period. My Dad's old 73 rally Clan is sat there doing nothing and its pretty much to Rally spec (Luff shell), 998, twin webbers, R21 cam, reg pattern head, front rad, monte springs, strengthened cross member and wishbones etc. It would need a new cage making and some seats making that are FIA approved, I think Motordrive can probably make some to spec. Any ideas on seats and where to mount a cage? Also I don't think I could run 70 profile tyres as they wont fit under the arches with 13" wheels.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by The Nun » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:21 pm

Rsimps wrote:Any ideas on seats and where to mount a cage? Also I don't think I could run 70 profile tyres as they wont fit under the arches with 13" wheels.
Dave Weedon (Impecunious) on here, will know all that for certain.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Rod » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:58 am

Rsimps wrote:Does anyone know if anyone rallied a Clan with the Viva disc brake conversion on the front, in the post historic period. My Dad's old 73 rally Clan is sat there doing nothing and its pretty much to Rally spec (Luff shell), 998, twin webbers, R21 cam, reg pattern head, front rad, monte springs, strengthened cross member and wishbones etc. It would need a new cage making and some seats making that are FIA approved, I think Motordrive can probably make some to spec. Any ideas on seats and where to mount a cage? Also I don't think I could run 70 profile tyres as they wont fit under the arches with 13" wheels.
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would come in but for what it's worth....

Imps can run on 65 profile due to the lack of availability of suitable tyres, don't know if that helps. Regarding discs, we have debated somewhere the value of using them (oh I think that was on Facebook) presumably Andy Dawson and Alan Conley would have run them in period? Regarding a roll cage, the Clan was supposedly manufactured with a built in structure so one was unnecessary back in the day. I ran my Saab 96 with only a rear cage, as I recall the front pillars were considered strong enough to make a front cage redundant and SD didn't even make one! Times have changed.

It would be great to see a Clan out on rallies. :D Clan002

Imp022
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Rsimps
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Rsimps » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:41 pm

All the articles I have show Andy Dawson and Co using drums and 12" wheels. But know body makes any 12" rally tyres these days so I think we could run 13" with 65 profile tyres to Imp sizes. I recon the Drums would be fine on gravel, in fact better than discs as you would probably get too much front to rear braking with discs on such a light car. The car has the Viva brake mod fitted, but it wont be a problem to fit drums, I must have some somewhere off an old Imp. Fitting wheel in will be interesting, at the moment its behind the seats. I have seen one carried on the engine cover before. Again the modern cage has more members than the rear cage that's fitted at the moment.
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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by bks974c » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:47 pm

The exemption that allows Imps to use 65 profile applies to gravel tyres only.

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Re: Historic Stage Rallies All queries on eligibility please

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:01 pm

Rod wrote: Regarding a roll cage, the Clan was supposedly manufactured with a built in structure so one was unnecessary back in the day.


Imp022
Not all Clans though, and the papers that were issued for Clans were withdrawn after a dispute over the numbers built
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