Para Hills GT

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cainr
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Para Hills GT

Post by cainr » Tue May 28, 2019 10:34 am

Hi All. I'm Robert and I live in South Australia. I was Member No. 201 in, I think, 1982 but let it slide around 1987, since the new family budget did not allow for two club memberships (i.e The Imp Club and the Hillman Car Club of S.A.). I've owned various Imps since my first car in 1975. The salesman laughed at me when I tried to trade it on a Holden in 1977, so I kept it and I'm glad I did. The current car is a 1967 GT, the one pictured in Wikipedia. This car, a "barn find" has an interesting, albeit simple, history. If anyone wants to know just ask. I do, however have questions about the sport brake servo.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by bazzateer » Tue May 28, 2019 10:55 am

Welcome to the forum Robert. Sounds like you should have loads of stories to tell us. Looking forward to hearing more.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue May 28, 2019 5:29 pm

Just seen the wiki OZ ~Imp (white one) ... good provenance!

Strange to think you are moving into winter (but it's still warm) and we are (STILL) hoping to shake off the northern cold air flows here and it's almost midsummer. :( Clan004
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by johnh875 » Tue May 28, 2019 11:36 pm

Hi Robert, I think I met you last at the 50th anniversary run to Linwood, with your son from memory. I have good memories from that weekend, even if my car failed at the starting gate.

Robert's car is further down the wikipedia page, the beige-ish coloured GT. Also seen here from Linwood on the right!
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Linwood South Australia, 50th anniversary event
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by cainr » Fri May 31, 2019 8:59 am

Cheers for the replies, I am a full member now but my status has not been updated from non-member. Check out YouTube, typing in "Hillman Imp Restoration" for a slideshow of the GT's resto.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by yoeddynz » Fri May 31, 2019 7:26 pm

Welcome along to the forum!

Linwood there looks a little bit sunnier then Linwood Scotland... :-)
[https://oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/28896-was-yoeddynzs-1968-viva-mazda-v6-new-owner-welcome-guzzi-rat/
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by yoeddynz » Fri May 31, 2019 7:32 pm

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:Just seen the wiki OZ ~Imp (white one) ... good provenance!

Strange to think you are moving into winter (but it's still warm) and we are (STILL) hoping to shake off the northern cold air flows here and it's almost midsummer. :( Clan004
The weather here in marahau, south island, nz has indeed been very warm. We were sun bathing yesterday and its been 20 degrees in our valley over the middle of the day. Hannahs mum is in Wales right now and it was a lot cooler there.
But you'll be happy to know that a cold front has arrived, it's raining and some parts further south may well get snow. Just for the official start of winter. We might see as low as 2 degrees here.

I can't imagine it's as cold in SA where Robert and John are? Ideal for imps :-)
[https://oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/28896-was-yoeddynzs-1968-viva-mazda-v6-new-owner-welcome-guzzi-rat/
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Fri May 31, 2019 8:03 pm

yoeddynz wrote:
Lotus-e-Clan wrote:Just seen the wiki OZ ~Imp (white one) ... good provenance!

Strange to think you are moving into winter (but it's still warm) and we are (STILL) hoping to shake off the northern cold air flows here and it's almost midsummer. :( Clan004
The weather here in marahau, south island, nz has indeed been very warm. We were sun bathing yesterday and its been 20 degrees in our valley over the middle of the day. Hannahs mum is in Wales right now and it was a lot cooler there.
But you'll be happy to know that a cold front has arrived, it's raining and some parts further south may well get snow. Just for the official start of winter. We might see as low as 2 degrees here.

I can't imagine it's as cold in SA where Robert and John are? Ideal for imps :-)
Well we are nearly mid-summer and it's still struggling. Any warmth comes in stits and Farts (Fits and starts :? ). Praying for a heat wave. :shock:
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by The Nun » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:00 am

Its 18c here today in the morning sunshine on the English Riviera though, The Chammys so sparkly I need to get my sunglasses out 8)
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by johnh875 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:36 pm

yoeddynz wrote: I can't imagine it's as cold in SA where Robert and John are? Ideal for imps :-)
I am in Melbourne where we have had a cold burst, on Wednesday it was 10°C until mid afternoon when southerly winds came through with hail. Small stuff almost like snow, and the temperature dropped to 5.

The 50th anniversary event had fairly hot weather, I think 35+ for the trip over so everyone's temp gauges were going up and down with the hills.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by cainr » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:15 am

What's all this talk about weather! Mind you, our weather is a little unkind to standard Imp cooling systems. On the 24th of January Para Hills recorded a temp of 47.7C while the temperature readout on the dash of our RAV4 showed 50.0C but on the 25th of May the minimum temp was 2.0C. Now THAT is Imp friendly weather. Although in the frosty weather I always had stalling issues in the first 2-3 miles with my earlier Imps which had no manual choke and had the auto choke removed.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by johnh875 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:21 am

cainr wrote:This car, a "barn find" has an interesting, albeit simple, history. If anyone wants to know just ask. I do, however have questions about the sport brake servo.
Hi Robert, consider yourself asked on the history of your GT! Forgot to say that earlier.

Also what are the questions about the servo. Not that I will be likely able to help, but I'm sure someone will.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by cainr » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:58 am

I had a reputable company overhaul the servo whilst the car was under restoration and then it was installed and the brakes bled. Upon brake application there is an audible "click" which can be heard inside the cabin. I can only assume that this is the sound of the secondary piston moving as the vacuum operation actuates it. Also there is no noticeable proportional brake application in relation with the pedal. In other words, you press the pedal a short way to get a small application of braking and there is very little discernible effect on speed and when the pedal is pressed harder there is full brake application, there is no in between. Normally as the pedal pressure progresses, the brakes apply with similar progression. This does not happen and it makes the car difficult to drive-(read: I hate it!) Especially during the Bay to Birdwood Run where each car would apply the brakes a couple of hundred times!! The warranty expired 8 years ago and I spoke to the company but they were of little help. I would take it back for another overhaul except for (1) It may come back the same way due to overhauling procedures (original cost $400 or 200 pounds) or there is something inherently wrong with the booster and (2) the brakes have been bled twice now, using 1.5 litres of fluid on each occasion and lots of time because of the routing of the brake piping. I created an extra volume reservoir out of PVC plumbing fittings which screwed onto the existing resi and this helped.
I spoke to another GT owner in Adelaide (he had the unrestored GT at Linwood), looking to see if he had a SH booster for overhaul (he didn't), and he told me that the brake booster on his car was working perfectly even though it may not have been touched in it's life.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by 617sqn » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:32 am

You can get new replacements over here. At 200 quid for a refurb, why would you bother ? Look at ebay uk and go from there ?

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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by The Nun » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:09 am

There were two types of servo fitted to the IMP both Girling the Powerstop type both have the 5" vacuum cylinder and are Mark 2a and Mark 2b, the early version was fitted from 66 to 69 and the later 69 until end of production, on all twin carb models, unless one was specified as an option to lesser models.

They have different internals, the later has a much better vacuum piston sealing arrangement.

Having experienced both types I can confirm the older version has a much fiercer action, the later is more progressive and better to live with.
You cant get either types new now but there are companies here that will overhaul them fully for you for around 400 pounds, the items were used on lots of other cars, the Lotus Cortina and those cars being restored, amongst others, the owners need them to stay looking original.
Or you can get the resealing kits and do it yourself.

For them to work correctly there needs to be a non return valve fitted so the vacuum is retained in the unit, the later ones had the valve on the unit at the hose connection to the vacuum chamber but the earlier front mounted servos had the valve in the banjo on top and if thos hasnt been refitted after a overhaul and a plain banjo fitted the unit instead it will not build up vacuum so wont work correctly.

You can buy new units on line but they are now Lockheed units and wont fit onto the original IMP mounting and are bigger, but they are cheap in comparison to having you old one rebuilt, they will do the job, BUT they dont look original and wont mount like the original, depends on what youre after, originality or just anything that will work?

What you could do is dispense with the servo completely, or leave it in situe so it looks correct but dont have it connected up and fit front disc brakes instead, you will find with discs you dont really need the servo, people like Robin Human offer a complete front disc brake fitting kit either in 12" form to fit inside the original steel wheel of a larger kit for the 13" alloys. he charges around £330 for the kit?
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by 617sqn » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:15 am

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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by moose » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 am

I would say blank off the servo (so car looks original but servo does nothing) and see how the brakes feel. If the pedal is too hard for you without servo assistance change the master to a .625 and then see how you feel about the brake pedal feel. I really would not go to the trouble of disc brakes for a road car. From my experiance the disc brake kits give too much front braking especially on cars where the reason it has been fitted is lack of maintenance on the entire brake system so people jump to the instant decision of discs are on modern cars therefore better and fit front discs and leave the rears alone, not even checked, cleaned or serviced. Then they experiance fronts locking in the wet, then they contact me for some uprated shoes for the rear to try and bring some bias back to where all the actual weight of the car is that you are trying to stop. A properly serviced drum brake set up with good quality shoes is more than adequate for road use. I still run drums all round on the rally car with my uprated shoes that are designed to work as good as road shoes from cold and have better anti-fade properties when they start to build heat. You do need to follow the bedding in procedure ( i have sold 30 sets and only know of 4 people who have had issues, those that have spoken to me we have resolved the issue. 1 was not following the bedding in procedure, the other was worn back plates where the shoes were sticking on ridges in the pad support plates. the other two people have been given the advice to de-glaze and follow the bedding in procedure again and if that fails i would supply new replacement shoes just in case they were a faulty set) I ran the.7 master cylinder in the early days as i liked the harder feel of the pedal but can understand that this could become tiring on a road car on the rally car i had adrenaline as a servo! I now have a proper bias pedal box uprated rear shoes, spare set of front arms with viva period disc brake conversion and front arms with drums and uprated shoes.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by The Nun » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:41 am

I like a nice firm pedal without too much travel, so with drum brakes I used to have them adjusted as tight as I could which meant the slave cylinders hardly move, this then meant they soon start sticking as the pistons arent moving enough I found, and I dont go around standing on the brakes each time to stop the car as some folk do racing up to a junction leaving braking until the last moment. I found you soon get used to using discs, you adapt quite quickly learning you dont have to use them so hard so locking up never becomes a problem, I prefer the discs as you can give them a quick visual without needing to strip them down, they dont retain water after going through flooded sections of road, which was a regular occurrence in the lanes where I used to live on the way to work. I just dont like drum brakes thats it. Everyone to their own I guess.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by cainr » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:15 am

Thanks to everyone for your replies.
To Peter
Mabe I can try backing the brakes off, but the brake system was completely overhauled from the MC to the slave cyls. I did try disc brakes based on the diagrams you provided in Impressions in 1983. Because I utilised Girling calipers the good news was that the original flexible hoses could be used (they screwed straight into the calipers and there was plenty of free play) but the bad news was that the mounting brackets needed to be modified because the calipers contacted the swing arms at full steering lock. The brakes worked really well with the STD MC. I used the brake set-up on two different non-sport Imps and there was a reasonable amount of bump-steer, but I lived with it. I sold the second car in 2010 because I then had the restored GT. I could not fit discs to the GT because (1) the car needed to be largely original for the, then, Historic Registration rules (now relaxed), (2) the GT is based on the Chamois Sport so it already had wider track than the other cars so discs would have made the front look awkward. Plus I have now fitted 13" wheels without having the choice of off-sets (13" wheels are rear here in 4" PCD unless you have them made specially at enormous expense). The wheels were fitted to a Torana which was based on the Viva, and unless I fitted 50mm shorter springs to the front to give negative camber, the wheels tyres would protrude past the arches. Discs would have made it worse. I have a set of discs in my garage machined and ready to go but they will stay there. I thought about taking the servo back to the overhauler and have it set up so that it just becomes a "dummy", with no internals, and fitting softer linings. It's just a hassell to keep bleeding the system. Incidentally the Chamois Sport which Chrysler Australia imported for evaluation for the GT had a front mounted servo, the only car I have ever seen with that set-up. That would make bleeding easier. This car still exists. It is also interesting that a servo was an option for non-sport Imps. Also, here is a bit of trivia which is a challenge to all on the forum-: The Australian GT is the only factory produced Sport specced Imp variant in the world to carry the "Hillman" name. Is there another?
To Moose
I currently have the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged but the pedal is just too hard. Would this be improved if softer linings were fitted? I will retain the .7 MC, I am NOT taking the fuel tank out AGAIN. There are generic servos (specifically for drum brakes) available in Australia on eBay and they are less than 50 pounds in your moolah but they don't look original and won't fit the original bracketry.
I am still waiting to be changed to "member" status, so then I may be able to post a photo with my name.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by The Nun » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:51 am

The latest versions of disc brake kits do not increase the track width now though as you still use the IMP hub, and are much improved over the old Viva items which are hard to get hold of anyway now, with the old Viva system you had to adapt the Viva hub to take the IMP bearings, that hub pushed the wheel outwards.
If you had the 12" kit and original wheels and trims then its not obvious you have done any mods at all from a bystander point of view. Of course the disadvantage of the 12" wheel now is the limited selection of decent tyres available for them.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by Grahame59 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:08 am

I'm with Peter (The Nun) on this. Having had (Micra) discs on my Imp for 20 years I would never go back to drums.

• Easy visual checking of pad wear
• No fade (though this shouldn't happen on a road car, even with drums, unless you live in a mountainous area. Nevertheless, cooling is far better with discs as they are in the airflow and that can't be a bad thing)
• No pulling to one side if car hasn't been driven for a few weeks
• Far easier and quicker to change pads than shoes
• Best of all, never need adjusting between pad changes (drums need frequent adjusting to be at their best)

Let's face it, if the Imp was still being made there is no way it would have drums.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by cainr » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:04 am

I am aware of the Micra disc brake conversion, having followed the Practical Classics magazine articles on the restoration of the Imp used for the conversion. Because the conversion is part of a kit there was no detail on how the kit was researched and developed, I could have made one up myself since I am in the engineering trade and we did get Micras in Australia. The price of the conversion kit at 330 pounds means that, with postage, it would set me back the best part of 1000 of our bucks so I will stay with the drums. I had discs between 1983 and 2010 so I know they were good. I just need to sort out the servo. I drive the GT very little- less than 1800 miles in 10 years. Incidentally the car still has its original linings from the factory, since there was just over 20K on the clock on purchase. YouTube "Hillman Imp Restoration" and you will see a slide show to pan pipe music, and it will show the linings and the recond servo in it's original location and current location.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:20 am

The Micra Kits were developed by a long-standing Imp Club member. He did an excellent job with regard to function and safety.

The 12 inch front wheel Micra kit (I have) has the same braking force as the original Imp front drum set-up so brake balance is the same with no fear of locking the front wheels. The 13 inch wheel kits develop more braking force. There are contradictory reports regarding front locking with most of the 13 inch kits (Fiesta and Micra).
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by moose » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:20 pm

Better lining will not give a softer pedal mechanically i am afraid, but you may feel that you do not have to push as hard on the pedal due to the material working more effectively. It is very hard to come to any conclusions about the disc brake set ups and what works or doesn't due to the huge human factor in the mix and i do not want to say "his kit is better than his" due to the fact these kits have been developed by club members for the benifit of the club members. What i have come accross from supplying better rear shoes is........

People fit front discs "because modern cars have them so therefore the car will stop faster with modern parts fitted" with this type of person when you get the feedback of your rear shoes did not make any difference and dig deep into what has gone on, is their brake system has had absoloutley zero maintenance since the car was dragged out of a garage and put back on the road (old shoes, stuck slave cylinders, old fluid etc etc)

The only advantage i can see from front discs is less maintance.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by johnh875 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:48 pm

Definitely sounds like something is wrong with your servo Robert. I'm not sure what firms are experts in these but I will see what I can find out.

There is definitely nothing wrong with drums if you have seen Jerry Lenstra's group N Imp out-braking basically everything.in historic racing.

Edit - braking, not breaking! Although it did a bit of that too - Jerry did a lot of development work on his cars and was one to push the limits of things.
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by bazzateer » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:48 pm

moose wrote:The only advantage i can see from front discs is less maintance.
Agreed although being less prone to fade is another. I bought a disc kit for LNK many moons ago but the drums have always been so good I never fitted it. (It's not for sale though).
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:17 pm

bazzateer wrote:
moose wrote:The only advantage i can see from front discs is less maintance.
Agreed although being less prone to fade is another. I bought a disc kit for LNK many moons ago but the drums have always been so good I never fitted it. (It's not for sale though).

And discs actually work when stopping in reverse! :o Clan004
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by bazzateer » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:51 am

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:And discs actually work when stopping in reverse! :o Clan004
Yep, been there and done that, last Going Dutch actually! :oops:
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Re: Para Hills GT

Post by 617sqn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:38 pm

Member No. 7500, and Stan's best mate.
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