VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

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benwick3
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by benwick3 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:39 pm

Looks like a great club event but to me it appeared to me with no reversing more like an autosolo! By the way, what's the green stuff?

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:34 am

Pete

I'm sure you have seen the green stuff before, its the stuff they put around the edge of race tracks to make you spin or soil your pants trying to brake on it heading towards the tyre barriers. :lol:

Club all forwards Autotest, autosolos tend to be faster and more flowing and less of a memory test as they arrow the route.

Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by benwick3 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:32 am

Still great fun and lucky to have such a great venue.

Many years of Autocross taught me that the green stuff is not great for braking :o

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:31 pm

I've been swithering about booking VAK in for a rolling road session and entering a track day when I'm down for the National.

Its been a regular part of my National to do a track day or two when I'm away so finally bit the bullet and organised both, part of the reason for the hesitation was having finished my current restoration job I had nothing lined up which would have meant no money coming in, however that's now been sorted.

So now need to get VAK ready, lowered the front which needed more work to ensure clearance for the front wheels.
IMG_20180730_113928.jpg
Then fitted a check strap to stop the spring becoming mis seated on droop.
IMG_20180730_122225.jpg
Engine cover stay broke the fibreglass, so made up and fitted a repair plate, then ran out of things to do as need some tools from home so started on the strip down of the new project.
IMG_20180730_181627.jpg
Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by colimp66 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:18 am

Looking good Scott and hope the arch mods prevent the wheel/tyre rub you have been having.

New project? Hmmm ..... I see the Marina Coupe in the background, could this be the said new project?

Enjoy the track day :wink:

Col.
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:16 am

Thanks Colin, it is indeed.

This Marina has only done 1767 miles since it was built, it was the last shell from the factory (not last complete car) and built for competition. still has its race engine and gearbox.

It had a fancy rear axle set up which didn't work and was being reengineered but then left outside for 30 years which haven't been kind to it.

As we have an issue regarding lack of content currently on the forum I'm considering running a Readers Car thread on it, if no one objects. Perhaps that's in part an answer to activity on the forum opening it up rather than than just Imp related.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by 617sqn » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:23 am

Haha, I thought we already discussed loads of non-imp related things :lol:

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by 617sqn » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:24 am

Hey, wanna see an image of my MG ZS 180 ?

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:28 am

Andy

Yeah why not, lets get this place rocking again 8)

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:58 am

Scott

The VAK pic of the front wheel arch clearance...does it have (75Kg of ?) ballast in the driver seat? It would be interesting (for me at least) to see your front and rear ride/corner height changes with it laden/unladen.

Both the front O/S and rear O/S on mine drop together with me in it.

I've been trying to set mine up level when laden (concrete bags in driver seat) but when just the O/s front spring platform is raised (say an inch), the Clan monocoque is so stiff that I'm finding it's the whole N/S that rises too with the rear O/S not changing much at all - weird!

I guess you have an advantage with the rear platform adjustment - you can raise the front and rear o/s together to get a level laden stance?

How do you set yours up?

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bazzateer » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:40 pm

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:Scott

The VAK pic of the front wheel arch clearance...does it have (75Kg of ?) ballast in the driver seat?

Clan004
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:47 pm

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:Scott

The VAK pic of the front wheel arch clearance...does it have (75Kg of ?) ballast in the driver seat? It would be interesting (for me at least) to see your front and rear ride/corner height changes with it laden/unladen.

Both the front O/S and rear O/S on mine drop together with me in it.

I've been trying to set mine up level when laden (concrete bags in driver seat) but when just the O/s front spring platform is raised (say an inch), the Clan monocoque is so stiff that I'm finding it's the whole N/S that rises too with the rear O/S not changing much at all - weird!

I guess you have an advantage with the rear platform adjustment - you can raise the front and rear o/s together to get a level laden stance?

How do you set yours up?

Clan004
Peter

I can see where your going with this but think you need to forget level and do it by setting the corner weights not sure the Clan is symmetrical.

Me, I'm just trying to get the tyres to fit without fouling on the arches and not sitting too high, I've removed a lot of the arch to get the 185/60/13 Toyo Proxes on 6 inch rims to fit, the choice of road legal track day tyres has reduced due to e marking.
Then matched the camber without weighting as will be running both with and without a passenger at Kendrew Barracks so compromised one way or the other. From experience two up put much more loads through everything on a light car.

Rears not adjustable yet, fabrication done but still to sort rear discs to go with the set up before fitting.

I'll let you know how I get on. If your going to the National I can sit in the car for you. :lol:

Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:12 pm

Lowered the rear today by taking out the wooden spacer and replacing with a thinner steel one made from cutting out the centre from some brake discs rescued from the scrap pile
IMG_20180731_113519.jpg
IMG_20180731_113526.jpg
IMG_20180731_121645.jpg
Turns out I didn't need the spacer as loads of clearance for the sump :o

Scott
Last edited by bks974c on Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:59 pm

Ah I see!

No one in my family will ride in the Clan so I was trying to set it up for just me ...might as well take the passenger seat out to save weight (passenger MX5 recliner is heavy!) :(

National attendance will be a very last minute decision - only just getting the Clan on the road after a lay-off - much tweaking to do.

It's about seven years since I've been to a National (Anglesey Track night 2011 ?)- about time I pulled my finger out. :)

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:58 pm

Spent the day getting packed for the National.
IMG_20180801_134528.jpg
Tracking checked
IMG_20180801_192207.jpg
Loaded up apart from the things I've forgotten ready for the off tomorrow.

Snetterton might be on the cards again as track day now listed for Monday evening, depending how Saturday goes might get it booked.

Weather forecast looks excellent for the weekend, better pack the suncream.

Scott
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National 2018 PRESTWOLD PARK

Post by bks974c » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:41 pm

Woke on Thursday to rain and rather cold. Set off just after 7.00am - 10 minutes later I realised I had left my phone :evil:
I can live without my phone but my bank cards are in the case so would have been both a cheap and dull event, cheap I can live with but dull - never.

2nd departure 7.30 am as the rain starts to fall even heavier, miserable all the to Carlisle when it gets even heavier. , weather forecast got it right. Just before Penrith it starts to brighten and temps start to rise. Over the A66 to Scotch Corner and head south on the A1M,
by the time passing Leeds its getting warm enough to take off my jumper :).

Traffic had been light and free flowing until about 16 miles from the venue (8 miles from exiting the M1) when it ground to a halt.
As I was sitting beside a slip road I reprogrammed the Sat Nav to avoid Motorways and it comes up with a shorter route which was a few minutes longer :D :D :D . Arrived shortly about 1.30pm to 30 degree heat, registered then set up my tent, then went for a wander checking out the facilities and the stalls and saying hi to old friends.

I had booked a table for 8 of us just down the road (1/2 mile) at the Packe Arms for 6.30pm, we picked up a stray so had 9 for the meal and very nice it was too and very reasonably priced so we booked tables for the rest of the weekend.

Headed back up to the marquee where we enjoyed a few beers catching up with friends. It was very nice to be able to sit out until after dark in pleasant temperatures.

to be continued.

Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:18 pm

Friday up early, far earlier than I wanted think it was the dawn chorus, next year think I'll take ear plugs :)

Up side is you get showered without queuing although it suprising how many are also up and about. Had my porridge and coffee sitting outside enjoying the lovely early morning.

After a mooch about and some catching up with friends you only see at the National, set off for Norfolk some 104 miles away - 21/2 hours according to the SatNav for a Rolling Road session with the Clan.
I was booked in for 3.30pm but left early hoping to get there about 1.30pm incase they were able to do it earlier alternatively I would just go and have a leisurely lunch.

Journey was progessing nicely until Kings Lynn when it ground to a standstill at a roundabout where it went from dual carriageway to single, total gridlock. After about 30 mins I made it the couple of hundred yards on to the roundabout and looked for an alternative route, that and the temp in the mid 30's wasn't doing my blood pressure any good. Eventually got back on the route and arrived at 3.00pm and unloaded the Clan, they had just finished off a drift car - BMW with Toyota turbo with 500bhp. talk about little and large.

Got the Clan on the rollers and left them to get on with it, while I tried to find some shade.
They found two issues with the set up, the throtle position sensor was wired incorrectly - positive and negative connections transposed, this will have been like this since it was converted to fuel injection in about 2008. It does explain the TPS readings I saw when playing with the system. The second the ignition was 7 degrees over advanced, I knew the trigger wheel had a discrepancy of 3 degrees but it was only while they were remapping it I realise it was my error I had set the calibrated TDC trigger point to 93 deg when i should have set it to 87 doubling the error rather than cancelling it out. :oops:

They finished it around 5.45pm so took it round the block but even driving out of the workshop you could feel the difference, slightly surprised and diappointed that it only had 82 bhp but it was set up for drivability rather than max bhp, no time for a proper run so loaded back on the trailer and set off back to Prestwold Park. This time the journey took the 21/2 hours as per SatNav which is pretty impressive if I say so myself towing a trailer and the type of road.

Parked up, grabbed a burger and chips on site along with a beer before joint some of the others for the evening entertainment.
Didn't stop up too late as up early the next morning for the track day.

Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:02 am

82 BHP at wheels ? that would be approx 96 bhp flywheel (i seem to remember 17% transmission loss, do not know if this is to the wheels or just the box) brake shoes slightly dragging, tyre pressures, air temp and pressure so you could have 100bhp flywheel, to get more you do need a pretty special engine. If it is now driveable and pulls strong from as low down the rev range as possible it will be faster than before.
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:01 am

Mike

That 82 was at the flywheel, 64 at the wheels so 18bhp transmission losses. The engine was already superbly tractable just the occassional hint of pinking - 7 degrees of advance might have contributed to that, the original spec the engine management was set up for was 950cc R17 and now was 998 R21 so wanted it optimised for the current spec.

More news to come on the engine.

Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:05 am

Good to know 18 bhp loss from flywheel to tyre, be interesting to be a ble to break that down so maybe donuts absorb 6 bhp actual gears and diff 6bhp etc etc. What are the valve sizes and port work on this engine?
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:24 am

I did a leakdown test when I got home as it was getting a bit breathey but not burning any oil, the losses were fairly high so removed the engine and took of the head to reveal damage to no.4 piston and a bit of the top compression ring had been having a dance and was now resting in the piston. Top two compression ring broken up because of the dancing.

So we know where the missing horses went, what amazes me is it still had 82 bhp and reved to 8000 easily, wasn't smoky, liners unmarked, good oil pressure. So with a rebore and new pistons will live on.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:14 pm

Oh Dear, rings broken due to detonation? number 4 worst cooled cyl maybe. Surprised RR did not leak it down before having it on rollers and risking it going bang i thought that was custom and practice to save the dreaded conversation with the customer. Hope you get it fixed easly.
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:18 pm

Don't know, there is no other evidence of detonation.

The car went well enough before and after the rolling road as well as during the track day, the lack of bhp along with excess crankcase gasses was why I did the leakdown test. It was moderate across all the pistons.

Fortunate timing, Andy Jones had finished two of my engines a standard 930 and a 1020 which I collected at the National. The 1020 short block is now fully assembled just waiting on Wills Rings outer gaskets to put the head on.
IMG_20180812_154949.jpg
Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:45 pm

Scott

Do you think it was a ring quality issue? Did you gap them on the small side when fitted etc. ?

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:41 pm

Peter

No idea, because of the damage it's hard to separate cause from effect.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:44 pm

Just lost the post about the track day and too much work to redo it so here's the video from the last session



Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by benwick3 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:19 pm

Scott, what make were the pistons you were using. I ask as I have just suffered what appears to be the same problem. In my case I had tested my orange Clan at Blyton Park and whilst it appeared run OK there was pressurisation of the cooling system resulting in water being dumped. The interesting thing was that the cooling system remained pressurised for at least a day after the car had been unloaded and left.

Anyway being unable to find any reason for this I entered the Classic & Modern Motorsport Festival at Mallory Park. During practice the car felt fine until I got a temperature warning so returned to the paddock and found a lack of coolant. Although I had practiced 6th fastest the time was slower than I would have expected After letting the engine cool down water was added and the system bled and a catch bottle fitted to collect any expelled water. This was all done without running the engine as I have an electric water pump. When started the engine was only running on three cylinders with a tapping noise like a failed big end although the oil pressure was normal.. Game over watch the rest of the races on load onto the trailer.

Later in the week the head was removed from the engine instu. A section of No 3 piston was found to be broken between the the top and the top ring with the resultant piece being partially hammered into the combustion chamber - the source of the ticking noise? More surprising was a similar piece was missing from No 2 but in this instance there was no sign of it although there was slight marking of the combustion chamber. My theory is that despite No 2 piston being damaged the engine had been running on four albeit down on power.

Following the above discoveries the engine was removed and completely stripped when it was found that No 4 piston had suffered cracking in a similar position.

My pistons were Hepolite copies from F J Engineering.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by benwick3 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:32 pm

IMG_20180614_133623.jpg
[img]
IMG_20180614_133623.jpg
[/img]

Pictures showing damage.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:06 am

is it just the pictures or have the valves been clipping the piston cut outs?
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:46 am

Pete I'm running *exactly* same pistons from FJ Engineering (1040).

Recently looked into bores with a scope but not paid attention to the periphery where yours have gone.

I was investigating the cause of very small pools of oil and excess yellow staining on top of the pistons. I suspected it's my valve guides because I could see yellow oil stains (not black burnt) around the valve backs/seat edge. But after seeing your pictures I'm wondering about a ring issue.

I fitted mine with Deves rings and wasn't confident at the time that I had got the pesky 3 part oil ring properly assembled - or that I sufficiently honed the bores for the ring set to bed in properly.

It runs OK otherwise. I'll do a compression test this week sometime.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by benwick3 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:08 am

Moose,

Think it's the pictures. I believe the marks on the pistons are from the fragments of piston before, in the case of No2 they left via the exhaust.

Peter,

Deves rings were fitted.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:06 am

I'll get some pics but area of damage much smaller. pistons are old - Greetham engine with original pistons. I'm thinking bore wear might have been an issuse.

However, using Deves rings as well.

Scott
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by rhydian_mason » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:22 am

Do you happen to know what the specs are for front springs and dampers for an Irish Clan? Presumably same as for crusader. Dad is looking for new shocks (and possibly springs) for his?
"an aversion to corners and a tendency to spin at the slightest provocation"
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by bks974c » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:40 pm

rhydian_mason wrote:Do you happen to know what the specs are for front springs and dampers for an Irish Clan? Presumably same as for crusader. Dad is looking for new shocks (and possibly springs) for his?
Ref
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30700&p=294347&hil ... gs#p294347

I'd suggest about 100lbs springs would be about right for a road car although off the top of my head can't remember the length.
Try any adjustable shock set to its min setting and go from there.

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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:33 am

For the yellow rally clan that i prepared as a special test/ road rally car i had protech supply me some dampers that we tried and modified the settings with their help we used 120lb springs 10 inch long if you would like me to supply you with these items get in touch.
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Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:20 am

For years, I was using 100 lbin 10 inch fronts on short protechs. These fronts were OK when I still had the Std Clan 260 (280?) lbin 12 inch rears but not a good match when I swapped to the stiffer, shorter, TR 390 lbin rears.

With 100 lbin fronts / 390 Ibin rears, the Clan would pitch to the front and bottom out at the front too easily 2 up (full tank etc) - and because I'd increased downforce (dramtically) by fitting a flat floor front to back along with a full front spoiler, the front would compress on to the bumpstops @ 100 mph -which threw the car from bump to bump (small bumps on track) - and that was with just me onboard (84kg), NO front rad, NO spare wheel. If I increased the front protech stiffness to resist downforce compression it would understeer too much -esp in the wet. Also 10 inch is a tad too long for 100 lbin fronts IF wou want a low-ride road set-up because you easily bottom-out the adjustable front damper platform - probably OK if you raise the ride height overall (nearer rally style) - but I never tried that.

For road I'm now using 120 lbin 9 inch fronts on the same short Protechs.

The rears are the 390 lbin 9.5 inch TR2/6 (4in OD TR fronts) with 1 inch spacer in the pan on bespoke short (8 inch body) Protechs.

This set-up is FIRM for the road - but better balanced with the 390 lbin rears.
Main point:I've learned it's important to account for the balance change front to rear if uprating front springs (or rear) only. Clan004
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Location: forton lancashire north england

Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:03 pm

we were running RAC rear springs again with standard bodied protechs that i had delivered as their standard imp adjustable item and then after testing we sent them back and had the shim packs moved to suit the car. This is what you need to set up properly unless you buy their 2 way adjustable and have those altered from imp settings to clan after using them. If you have the single way you are only really adjusting the rebound although the compression alters to a certain pre-set extent but as you have found you are out of the correct range of increased re-boumd to try to correct compression. There is so much more to it than just throwing on montes and spax/avo/gaz etc Yes just doing this will make a 40 odd year old car with tired suspension handle so much better you will think you have a race car but you will still be way off the best handling you could achieve. As you have found by playing with the spring settings as well (the above was for people reading our comments not ctiticism of what you have done LEC) Back to Scott's clan now ?
Regards Moose
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rhydian_mason
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:42 am
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Car Model: Hillman Imp mk2, Hillman Imp Husky, Clan
Location: Machynlleth, Wales

Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by rhydian_mason » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:50 am

So, just to simplify it - for a road going Irish clan that needs new front shockers, and could possibly do with a suspension refresh, could I get away with Monte/Standard/RAC springs front or rear, and would a set of adjustable Imp shocks do the job?

Ideally would like a good road setup for a comfortable (not necessarily competition) ride. Considering getting matching springs and front shocks from GAZ.

Apologies - I know little about setting up suspension. with an Imp it's simple - Montes, Standard, RAC springs with standard, heavy duty, or adjustable shocks in my world!

Thanks again.
"an aversion to corners and a tendency to spin at the slightest provocation"
moose
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:41 am
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Car Model: rally imp
Location: forton lancashire north england

Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by moose » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:11 am

The clan does not weigh the same as an imp so spring rate needs to be lower for road use.

For a good road car i would go with protechs imp dampers and the springs that are on the car, see how it handles, when you have an idea of how it goes and have played with the damper clicks to fine tune it to what you are happy with. Then if you decide you have a problem like understeer in the wet and the tyres are good camber correct tracking correct you can then look at altering springs and dampers to remove the understeer. My thoughts are for what you are planning to do and your knowledge of suspension set up you will be happy with the protechs and the springs you have. I have used Spax not what they were back in the 70's, AVO's rods bent on rear dampers, GAZ corroded fast and i could not get a sutable setting and when trying to get them modified thay were not interested. Koni best damper i have ever used but non available and cannot get them re-built any more so i have had the settings copied and put into a protech damper many 2 very happy imp rally drivers so far Geoff taylor will be trying out a set on the woodpecker rally 1st sept. Protech have provided what i want and been very helpful in developing dampers with me. They offer a re-build service. At less than £500 a set excellent value for the money if you look at the build quality and work that is required to build them i would go with you get what you pay for and if the other dampers are cheaper then????
Regards Moose
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rhydian_mason
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:42 am
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Car Model: Hillman Imp mk2, Hillman Imp Husky, Clan
Location: Machynlleth, Wales

Re: VAK 1972 Clan Crusader

Post by rhydian_mason » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:16 am

Thanks - bit of a dark art which I know little about for Clans!
"an aversion to corners and a tendency to spin at the slightest provocation"
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