A Californian drying out in South Africa

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AntC
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by AntC » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:44 pm

Did early Imps have provision for greasing ujs? I saw no evidence of grease nipples when I had the rear wishbones off recently. The ujs are moderately stiff.
I may have the body of an old man, by my mind is a sharp as a boulder.

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:10 pm

They were either or, you could get both and you cant tell just with a casual look, especially if they're dirty as you had to remove the extension once the job was done and put a grub screw in the hole in the uj centre to seal it. If the extension is left in it can restrict the uj movement and can break off. Grease able are best if you can get them but the non grease able last ages if they're filled properly when fitting them.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:41 am

The Nun wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:10 pm
They were either or, you could get both and you cant tell just with a casual look, especially if they're dirty as you had to remove the extension once the job was done and put a grub screw in the hole in the uj centre to seal it. If the extension is left in it can restrict the uj movement and can break off. Grease able are best if you can get them but the non grease able last ages if they're filled properly when fitting them.
Just like the front stub axle king pins, they were greased for life, was it the life of the car or the owner? They soon added grease nipples whicg reminds me to check my king pins next . Imp027
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:49 am

AntC wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:44 pm
Did early Imps have provision for greasing ujs? I saw no evidence of grease nipples when I had the rear wishbones off recently. The ujs are moderately stiff.
While its on your mind it would be worth having a look and see if a grease nipple application grub screw can be found?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by AntC » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:53 am

African Imp wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:49 am
AntC wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:44 pm
Did early Imps have provision for greasing ujs? I saw no evidence of grease nipples when I had the rear wishbones off recently. The ujs are moderately stiff.
While its on your mind it would be worth having a look and see if a grease nipple application grub screw can be found?
Will do and thanks for the advice.
I may have the body of an old man, by my mind is a sharp as a boulder.

Cheers - Ant

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:10 am

African Imp wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:41 am

they were greased for life, was it the life of the car or the owner?
Often misused quote and very misleading, purely meant for reassurance youre covered if it goes wrong, but you arent, it ought to say "guaranteed for as long as they last", as you say life wouldnt have meant still ok now after 50 years would it?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:44 am

Both sides of the car now have the king pins greased, the welch plug on the drivers side is loose, I may fit a self tapper there to keep it in place?

This image is the nearside.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:31 am

If you fit a self tapper to hold the washer, the kingpin is fixed in place but the welch washer swivels with the hub, wont that loosen it off, plus youre drilling a hole in it to let moisture into the bearing?
Hammer it back in to spread it and re stake it is best I think?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:14 am

The Nun wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:31 am
If you fit a self tapper to hold the washer, the kingpin is fixed in place but the welch washer swivels with the hub, wont that loosen it off, plus your drilling a hole in it to let moisture into the bearing?
Hammer it back in to spread it and re stake it is best I think?
Thats a blow! cancel my once good idea?

I did whack the plug with my one pound copper hammer, it may stay there now, failing that I have a spare pair of stub axles here, so change one over?

As I have yet to go out on a wet road since I got the car back, the water ingress does not bother me.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by 617sqn » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:32 am

Don't you wash it then ? :o

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:58 am

617sqn wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:32 am
Don't you wash it then ? :o

Andy G
Washing the car? not that I can remember? the front and rear seals to the glass have still not had sealer applied as I cannot find anything that is not a bonding sealant. I do use a damp wash leather to remove dust and once or twice it rained and I put the car ourside to get wet, the law says as the drought was so serious that we cannot wash cars.

The drought is over, the dams around Cape Town are over 80% full, the Californian stayed clean enough anyway :D

The Loctite rep said to use Teroson RB4100, I have yet to find any.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:05 am

Drivers side king pin lower welch plug fix?

I will try the idea with a punch next?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 am

I punch the welch washer so its nearly flat, that spreads it in the recess then stake it.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:34 am

The Nun wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 am
I punch the welch washer so its nearly flat, that spreads it in the recess then stake it.
Getting the front of the car high enough to swing the copper faced hammer ( or other ) is an issue, same for the tool to do the stake part :(
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:43 am

Imp rear brakes shoes, which way of fitting the springs is correct?

WSM141 and the Heynes manual says the top spring should be at the back and inside the shoes.

I have seen pictures from a Motor Sport site showing the springs mounted inside and outside.

Which is correct, would it matter and if so why?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:10 am

I fit them as it shows in the manual one inside the other outside, and I know some fit both on the inside, they still work either way obviously. Fitting one or both on the inside would help pull the shoes onto the backplate where as if both where on the outside this would be acting to pull the shoes away from the back plate, so you either need one or both inside based on that fact?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:17 am

My rear brake shoes are fitted as per the picture to be found in WSM141, page 9 in Brakes section K.

The linings are specials made by Mintex and supplied by Moose of Century Autosport, they work really well.

Note, that center nut lock tab has since been folded over for it to work as intended.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by 617sqn » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:35 am

Make sure you follow his "running-in" procedure to the letter.

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:01 pm

617sqn wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:35 am
Make sure you follow his "running-in" procedure to the letter.

Andy G
I had the shoes bonded and the drums skimmed to fit the shoes, they worked really well and straight away, remind me what the bedding in process was please?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by 617sqn » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:40 pm

Best Mike does that rather than me. Hell be along soon, I'm sure. If not its on the forum someplace. BRAKES probably.

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:57 am

Here they are, sold by Century Autosport, contact Mike Dent who can do them bonded to brake shoes on an exchange basis.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:11 am

One job left until now was to fold over the rear hub lock nut tabs, I was able to reuse those on the car, the ones made here for me can wait for another day.

I can see that the mild steel wheel spacer will need painting and before it gets surface rust?

The extended wheel nut studs came from Ben Boult, they are very well made.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by moose » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:09 pm

I have seen pictures from a Motor Sport site showing the springs mounted inside and outside.


That is from some of my before and after pictures of customer cars that i have worked on and the site is still under development and explanations under all pictures is not there. As i explained to you in the email one picture is of a customers car that came with the springs fitted different to the WSM and the shoes fitted the wrong way round. What confused you even more was the conversion i did to a rally car by the back plates are switched from side to side and turned upside down so the adjuster is at the bottom and easier to get to with the wheel on the car at the side of a road between stages and the brake pipes and handbrake cables are above the trailing arm so protected from gravel etc on stages. I then had to have shoes with the leading edges switched so they were correct when mounted to the back plates. When we re-furbish the shoes we bond and rivet and radially grind the shoes so they fit the drums.

Bedding in procedure (if you have not followed this rough up the surface of the shoe with 60 grit emery)

Find a long open road with some where to park at the end that is level

perform 5-6 stops rapidly without locking wheels from 60 mph to 30 mph do not left foot brake or rest foot on brake pedal light application of the handbrake whilst braking to ensure the rear does more braking helps do not lock the brakes at any point

pull into the parking spot and let brakes cool down to cold and i mean cold! car take quite a while
DO NOT park with hand brake on or foot on brake pedal as you will cook the shoes to the drums

Now try a 60 mph to standstill emergency stop you should feel the rear of the car pulling down after the initial bite and nose dive from the fronts if it doesn't do this repeat the above bedding in.

Once you feel the brakes pulling down the rear of the car and it is stopping way faster than your old shoes use the car as normal. It is worth while having the drums off and cleaning out any dust and checking adjustment after bedding in.

On another point are the new locking washers you produce as hard as hell on the thick washer part? try filing an old one and you will see what i mean. I supply proper locking nuts that does away with the soft tab. The reason for this is the tab is soft, torque is thread stretch to achieve a clamping force. With the load from the tyres on corners putting side load on the hub and the small amount of rock on the splines the tab receives a side load and gets squashed it releases the torque and then the hub is loose and it moves more and wears the tab and the hub face until there is enough fretting going on the hub can move enough to put a side load on the nut which necks the thread off at the root and you loose a wheel. This has happened many times on competition vehicles and can happen on road car but may take longer. My worry with a reproduced thick washer is if it is not hardened then it will happen sooner than just with a soft tab part of the washer. I use the old thick washer chisel the tab off file the remains of the spot weld off and supply a special locking nut that is used in aero industry. The nut is then match marked after being torqued so in service a mechanic can check the match marks if they have not moved then the nut is still tight and the torque is still clamping the hub square to the bearing and driveshaft so no side loads can cause damage.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:13 am

Using the used but still accepatble lock washers, I have now locked off both rear wheel nuts.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:14 am

I clean mine up once its all secured and then use a fine line paint marker pen to mark a line right through the centre and across the nut so you can see at a glance if its moved, and as I dont have centre caps on my alloys you can check it whenever you want to look without having to remove the wheel.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by 617sqn » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:20 am

Damned good plan. You know what ? I've never ever questioned the integrity of the lock tab as supplied and fitted. Maybe it's something that could be looked into with a view to the longer term and on going manufacture of service items ?

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:45 am

A rally version castle nut and split pin is the best way of permanently holding it secure of course but you have the drill the shaft for it which some might not feel comfortable about doing either?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:49 am

The Nun wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:45 am
A rally version castle nut and split pin is the best way of permanently holding it secure of course but you have the drill the shaft for it which some might not feel comfortable about doing either?
My 1966 S type Jaguar had the same, I had no issues with that system in the 32 years that I owned the car :)
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by moose » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:04 pm

What stops the castle nut from turning and releasing the torque until the split pin takes up the slack and prevents the nut from turning much further? I am talking competition use here but remember most competition items are developed to provide reliability which tends to make them more expensive but on a road car would last forever! I have seen the standard set up fail on a rally car the wheel came off the car, same with the split pin set up Geoff taylor lost a wheel in Ireland when i first started working for him previous preparation people copied what was done back in the day which does not make it right or the ultimate solution it is through experience and development that these things get better and more reliable. On the cost side of it think about a rally trip to Ireland Fuel in tow vehicle from Surrey to scotland, ferry tickets, rally entry (£800 approx) accommodation for four 3 night min, food and drink for four. Only complete half the rally because the nut has released the torque very expensive when you add it to the cost of the labour for a specialist to drill and fit split pins and it doesn't work. After i lost a wheel on the rally car in my early days i ditched the tab washer and ordinary nut and sourced some proper locking nuts that were proven on 300 bhp + Escorts never had an issues since not even the remotest sign of fretting on the hub faces when inspected and the nuts are re-useable unlike nylocks for a critical component. Just had a look and the imp club spares nuts are £6 each so mine just went up in price by a pound.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:19 pm

This one is for Moose of Century Autosport:

I was not aware of the pre bedding in of the Mintex 6044251 linings you supplied me, I did ensure that they were a very good match to the skimmed drums I had done, the linings are bonded on, no rivets in my case.

Once fitted I tested out the brake feel in my local area, the change in braking was instant and with a change to a 0.70" master cylinder to assist the front discs, which are Ford Fiesta basked on a kit from Colin Valentine the car now feels like it has a brake servo when compared to before. :D
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by moose » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:37 pm

If the surface of the shoes doe not look shiny then you will probably be ok but my advice would be to rough them up and bed them in to heat treat the surface and down through the depth of the material. Worst thing that can happen is they improve. I am sorry if i did not supply the bedding info i usually supply it in paper form with the shoes in the box and also it is one of the first things i mention in communication with people who are looking to buy.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:41 pm

moose wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:37 pm
If the surface of the shoes doe not look shiny then you will probably be ok but my advice would be to rough them up and bed them in to heat treat the surface and down through the depth of the material. Worst thing that can happen is they improve. I am sorry if i did not supply the bedding info i usually supply it in paper form with the shoes in the box and also it is one of the first things i mention in communication with people who are looking to buy.
I used to have (still do) Ferodo VG95 competition brake linings, the use of a heat cycle in bedding those in was required as well.

I will have a look for glazing on the linings and see where I am with them then?
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by moose » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:48 pm

The big difference with the mintex Halo compound and the old VG95 is that once the Halo is bedded in correctly that is it, you should have better than road car brakes when cold and if you drive at rally speeds on the road (many think they can but actually cannot) they will not fade. The Vg95 you need to drive at rally speed to get heat into them to make them work and then keep them in that hot heat range for good stopping power.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:22 am

Having recently seen the image of an Imp saloon with the front number plate mounted center and in front of the grill, I wonder should I do the same?

This picture is the 1971 Hillman Imp that I restored for Robert Young a few years back, I assume Rob fitted the number plate where is is? Imp003
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by 617sqn » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:23 am

Why ?

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:33 am

617sqn wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:23 am
Why ?

Andy G
I just think that it is neater with the plate raised and the suspension in view.
The lack of forced air flow does not bother me, the heater blower can be used for that when I want an increased air flow.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by 617sqn » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:38 am

Each to their own I guess : I can't see anything sexy about front wishbones. Best hidden in my view :D

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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by The Nun » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:06 am

Mount it up on the bottom edge of the bumper if you want it higher and it won't restrict airflow to the grille then, also putting the plate directly on the grille will abrade the paint and cause it to rust and you cant keep it clean behind either, plus it looks a bit rubbish to me as well.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:24 am

As it turned out this was one of the easiest fixes that I have done on the car, I was in luck as the mounting holes in the number plate were centered, that then centered the plate on the front grill.
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Re: A Californian drying out in South Africa

Post by African Imp » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:26 am

To my mind the plate fixed in this position is neater and cleans up the front of the car.

I had no holes to drill, the original mounting bracket was removed and the fastening machine screws were replaced back into there mount holes with some Hylomar sealant on them. should I want to revert to the standard number plate position it will be as easy as it was to move it to where it is fixed now :)
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Last edited by African Imp on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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