Clan JO JASON - New Mirror indicators

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Re: Clan JO JASON - Bum-Tuck!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat May 31, 2014 8:27 am

The Nun wrote:
Lotus-e-Clan wrote:
The Nun wrote:
Nah -still 0-60 in 5.8 secs (I guess) ... :(

(The 205/55/13s do slow it down btw!)
You're nearly there then, only another 3.8 seconds to go and its faster than a 2 million quid Veyron :D
Ha! Taking a leaf out of Jenson Button's book , I've moved-on from the Veyron - just like him I've bought a SMART Roadster (for the wife) instead (apparently he got fed-up with Veyron bills). :mrgreen:
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 1040 OUT!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:42 pm

Long time no post!

Well after 10 years or so tolerating a release bearing rattle I've been forced to remove the engine to fix a complete loss of function. I foolishly dislodged the clips (or so I thought) manipulating the slave cylinder whilst investigating a clutch slip causing the VW release bearing to rotate out of engagement with the clutch fork! :evil:

Well it serves a purpose because the valve guide clearances have always been at the extreme of tolerance from the get go so I can do an engine refresh whilst it's out.

Sorry about blurry picture - camera shake! (I needed a drink)
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(...slurp...ah ..that's better..)
The eagle-eyed will notice the new rear light design (sequential indicators). More about that another time - there is so much to update thread-wise.
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Well -- NO CLIPS FOUND! :shock: OK I could see their dusty remains in the form of iron filings around the inside of the bell housing .- I reckon they fell out from the get go. The more experienced of you will not be surprised - I confess that I know I never did the std mods for the VW release - ie drill the pivot holes deeper and lock-wire the clips - too impatient!
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And boy oh boy, you can see how much the release bearing had been oscillating (cause of rattle) - just look at the pivot lug wear! Nicely bedded in though! :lol:
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I think as well as lock wiring in the new clips I will add a retaining spring attached to the top of the bearing to stop the oscillation.

In other news ..my coil pack for the mapped ignition had suffered very bad electrode corrosion ...look at the difference in colour for the lower two HT lead sockets - the internal electrode had completely eroded away in one. I deffo need a new coil pack and leads! You need eagle-eyes to see from the picture below.
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It had been running OK - WOT power seemed ok but it was not as rock steady on tickover as it used to be.

I think I'll relocate the pack when the 875 sport engine goes in next month. Good times! :)
Peter Kalamity! :| Clan004
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 1040 OUT!

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:48 pm

Glad its getting some love :)
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 1040 OUT!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:36 pm

Dave ' Linwood ' Lane wrote:Glad its getting some love :)
Yes I'm falling back in love with her (or is it him? Jo JASON..it could be either!)... Cheers! Clan004
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 1040 OUT!

Post by colimp66 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:36 pm

Always good to see a Clan thread.
Keep us posted, please

Cheers
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 1040 OUT!

Post by bks974c » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:19 am

Good to see progress, my coil pack is mounted under the rear parcel shelf, away from the heat and soaking everytime I have to wash the engine :shock:

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Re: Clan JO JASON - 1040 OUT!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:08 pm

Yesh I'm now thinking under parcel shelf is best for the coil pack.

Hope to keep the thread more up to date from now on.

Thanks for comments everyone. Clan004
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 875 Sport IN!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:30 pm

Good ol' standby 875 SPORT about to go in ... :D
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Coil Pack relocation to original dizzy position. New Coil pack is Vauxhall/Renault therefore New HT leads off an ASTRA 1.8 ...note plug length designed for twin cam heads. Only a temporary solution to get the thing going. :roll:
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New 60A off ebay (Denso sold as a tractor alternator) ..has a very small pulley diameter which really does pull down idle revs when heavy load switched on (esp. headlights, Rad Fan)
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Easier to remove and replace alternator with brackets attached - saves messing about with pivot spacers in a confined space.
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Alternator strap integrated with coil pack bracket location bolts so bolt holes are slightly slotted to allow radial adjustment of strap.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 875 Sport IN!

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:08 pm

looks great
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Re: Clan JO JASON - 875 Sport IN!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:25 pm

Hello Dave

The above pictures are from a month ago mind you. The Sport is in and running great too -albeit with half the power of the 1040 ... :(

And here is your pressure gauge adapter in situ - I fitted that yesterday - much better routing now thanks to Dave.

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Re: Clan JO JASON - 875 Sport IN!

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:57 pm

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:Hello Dave

The above pictures are from a month ago mind you. The Sport is in and running great too -albeit with half the power of the 1040 ... :(

And here is your pressure gauge adapter in situ - I fitted that yesterday - much better routing now thanks to Dave.
Much better idea i think , ive found one more since finding our two :D
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Re: Clan JO JASON - COOLING

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:41 pm

I need to fill in some of the many gaps in this readers car thread.

Some of this stuff is historic so may have been posted elsewhere - but perhaps it would be easier for me to find if it's under one roof.

Clan COOLING MODS:
From 2004 the basic system comprised:
  • Rear HE Rad
    Temperature controlled EWP80 as main pump
    2 X 10 row MOCAL rads located in the front spoiler fed by the heater circuit
    Temperature controlled 13 L/min booster pump in the heater circuit
    Rear rad air flow source:- ram air from under the car
    11 inch SPAL rad fan temperature controlled from bottom hose
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MK 2 rear rad scoop
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Next post will show recent (2014 -2018) updates to the rear rad and cowls :) Clan004
Last edited by Lotus-e-Clan on Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - Cooling mods

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:20 pm

Disclaimer: These development mods ain't pretty - function is the priority. If and when I stop developing stuff I might use the time to make them look pretty! :oops:

RADIATOR CHANGE:

The 2004 HE rad bought from Malc @ the National that year worked really well!
However, the air vortexing pattern within the cowl on the front of the rad produced interesting copper fin erosion - exacerbated by lots of commutes during several hard winters of salty gritty roads up to 2014.

Also the hotter weather, plus no proper exit air management into the engine bay, pushed me to develop the rear cowling and add a 'diffuser' to the rear of the rad.

Out with the old in with the new! 10 years service and still worked reasonably - but hot days in summer did expose the deterioration in performance cooling the 1040.
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Thicker core too - (not necessarily good news)
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Alum Fan Cowl fitted to Alum Rad
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Rad exit air needed management to keep engine bay cooler and to prevent warm air entering the DHLA air intake..
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And of course the Exit air needs help all of the way out and away from the car.
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Next time - under floor scoop change and front spoiler mods to optimise the ram air ... ( need to photo the spoiler) :) Clan004
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Re: Clan JO JASON - more Cooling mods

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:55 pm

Under floor AIR management
Air is a fluid so it follows that the rate of flow within air streams, like water streams, tend to be fastest at the centre of the stream, and stalls toward the edges.

I learnt with the mark1 rear rad scoop that it's best to position the opening near to the centre of the car to catch the fastest moving air. The scoop is between the rear wheels, so need to keep it away from the dirty turbulent air and spray exiting the inner rear wheel arches.

Hence the latest mK3 rear rad scoop is skewed towards the centre of the car more than the mk2, - it even overlaps the transaxle bottom a tad.

The rad scoop is detachable from the main rad cowl - as is the diffuser floor - this means I can leave the rad and main rad cowls on the car when removing the engine.

Latest front spoiler mod directs and greatly improves air to the rear rad.
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Previously with the uncut full width spoiler I lost a lot of cooling capacity compared to running with NO spoiler at all. I've also opened up the air vents to the front Mocals which improves low-speed cooling.
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Mk3 Rear Rad Scoop is skewed toward the centre...
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... even overlaps the tranny!
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Rad scoop and rear diffuser floor is easily removed from below to aid engine removal.
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Hardly notice the rear diffuser from the rear ... new rear LED lights (sequencial indicators)!
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Next time - summary of cooling system performance using Evan's waterless coolant. :) Clan004
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Re: Clan JO JASON - Cooling mods

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:56 pm

Interesting and informative .
So now its been like this for a while do you think the reverse ram air flow a better system than standard , is this more suited to a Clan or do you think a standard imp would benefit .I see lots of development going on here.
Thanks for posting :D
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Re: Clan JO JASON - Cooling mods

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:10 pm

Dave ' Linwood ' Lane wrote:Interesting and informative .
So now its been like this for a while do you think the reverse ram air flow a better system than standard , is this more suited to a Clan or do you think a standard imp would benefit .I see lots of development going on here.
Thanks for posting :D
The devil is in many details. Many of my mods are marginal gains that all add up.

It is difficult to compare to the std system because I don't have/ need a rad FAN running at all times (unlike the std system). I guess where the 'reverse' ram system could be better than the std fan blower is at very high speed (illegal) when the exit air on the std system is said to be stalled by the changes in air pressure under the car near the inner rear wheel arch.

The rear rad diffuser ensures the air can't enter the rad in the std direction - ever! Also my engine bay cover 'rear lighting grill' is 'semi- sealed' against any significant low pressure air moving 'forwards' into the engine bay at any speed too - it all helps. And I guess the Clan is a better development horse than the Imp for my type of system.

One thing leads to another. When most folk remove their mechanical water pump to fit an EWP (to release engine power/torque), the std mod is to fit a front radiator.

So it is more relevant to compare my system to a front rad system.

Is cooling MORE efficient than a front rad system? - Of course not! - I have had to do a lot of (mainly hidden) air flow mods to get it to cool AS GOOD AS a front rad system cooling a 1040 with 100+ BHP.

Why not fit a front rad like everyone else?

The only significant advantages I guess are:
  • 1) The air flow over my Clan is as good as a std rear rad Clan. - When a front rad is fitted. most just cut slots in the body, stall the air flow at the front and increase front end drag. The better front rad installations will manage the air better AND increase front end downforce too even without a front spoiler fitted. But to vent a front rad Clan well, the exit air needs to be nearer the windscreen which means bonnet mods which significantly reduce the usefulness of the front compartment.
    2) I have full use of the front compartment - it's essentially a road car! I have filled the front with camping stuff on occasion - and I can pop the shopping in there too! A lot easier than throwing it over the high back seats, and then worse still, retrieving it! :D One job on the list is to fit a full plastic liner in the front boot - a bit like a SMART Roadster. I'm also very soon fitting a solenoid popper to open the boot from the outside with a remote (and shopping) in hand. Adds to refinement and pleasure in use. :)
    3) The flat floor system has greatly improved high speed downforce. The aero improvements of the flat floor compressed the suspension so hard at 100 mph it pushed the front dampers onto the bump stops - so I recently fitted stiffer front springs etc to compensate. - You can fit floor panels to a front rad Clan too of course, but I guess the clean front end of a std Clan is an advantage over the front rad 'ers for clean aero providing quicker progression of air to the rear of the car - where managing the exit air is ultra important too.
    4) The under floor panels protect the suspension and a lot of the engine bay. At the front (due to aero factors), the Clan is MUCH more susceptible to suspension corrosion compared to the IMP. Also all of the Clan's inner wheel arches lack the lower extensions you find in an IMP. This allows a lot more muck into the suspension areas. Wheel arch liners are the full answer -and this is a project on the todo list for mine. .
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Re: Clan JO JASON - Cooling mods

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:20 pm

Thanks for the explanation , makes sense to me ( kind of :roll: )
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Re: Clan JO JASON - some lecky mods

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:47 pm

Bored of cooling updates, I've turned attention to a few electrical mods:

Common Issues for Clan Owners
* Clan doesn't have hazards as std so I guess like many classic owners, you tend to shite yourself just a little bit if/when you breakdown on a motorway/dual carriageway.
* Similarly, pulling out of a parking space in reverse can be a bit of a pant-shite-r without a reversing light to warn passing cars + pedestrians (have all the bits to fit rev light at a later date).
* Driving in Fog is a nightmare in any low-slung car. FOG penetration in the Clan is made worse for having headlights that are set back within slots - dip beam doesn't light the road immediately in front and the glare back you get from eye-level dips is debilitating! I had to drive 20 mph in fog with modern's impatiently overtaking wondering what all the fuss is about.
* When I do a 'supermarket shop' I prefer to use the front boot, but it's a pain to have to open the door, pull the bonnet catch etc -especially if it's raining. Better to pop the bonnet lid from the outside using a remote control / 'bumper button'.
* A boot light can be useful too!

So I've done the following mods which are designed to have some integration/interdependency:
  • 1) HAZARDS (my own version using a relay and spare flasher)
    2) AUTOMATIC LED BOOT Light
    3) BOOT POPPER SOLENOID (remote control)
    4) FOG LIGHTS (remote control)
BOOT LIGHT/POPPER SYSTEM LOGIC.
  • The LED BOOT LIGHT is energised via a MICROSWITCH integrated with the boot catch. Boot LEDs are ON when the boot lid is OPEN.
    The above microswitch also energises a BUMPER PUSH BUTTON - but only when the boot lid is CLOSED.
    The above bumper push button, when held ON, temporarily operates the HAZARD lights.
    The HAZARDS (when ON) energise the REMOTE CONTROL MODULE and also, via a series of logic relays, ENABLES the BOOT POPPER circuit.
    When the REMOTE CONTROL is PRESSED with hazards flashing - the boot lid springs open!

    This allows you to pop the boot lid from outside the car with the remote control - but only when the bumper switch is simultaneously held. Without the remote control, the bumper switch will just flash the hazards, but not open the boot. WORKS GREAT!

    IF you switch the hazards ON from within the car (dash switch) AND press the remote control, the boot lid will pop. ie for security and safety, the boot lid pops using the remote control but ONLY IF hazards are ON (via dash switch or bump push button).
    BTW. Direction indicators + remote control will NOT pop the boot lid - you have to have hazards switched ON.
I've used a RING Remote Control Module (RCM) for many years to operate my FOG lights. I wanted to use the same RCM to operate the BOOT POPPER so I converted the RCM into a dual function device by designing a logic circuit using changeover relays.
The RCM needs to receive a TRACE SIGNAL (12v) for the remote control to operate. So changeover relays are used to ensure the remote control operates the BOOT POPPER using the hazard circuit 12v as the trace signal, and that the remote control operates the FOGS when the side light circuit 12v is the trace signal.

FOG LIGHT LOGIC
  • Simply put, when the side lights are ON the RCM remote will ONLY operate the FOG LIGHTS - not the boot popper.
    The side lights energise a changeover relay to swap the trace signal source from hazards --> sidelights.
    The hazards energise a changeover relay to swap the trace signal source from sidelights --> hazards.

    The changeover relays are wired such that:

    It is impossible for the boot to pop open when the FOGS are ON.
    It's impossible for the FOGS to light when the hazards are ON.
    If the FOGS are already ON when the HAZARD switch is pulled, the FOGS extinguish automatically.
HAZARD /DIRECTION INDICATOR LOGIC:
  • The changeover relay connected to the DIRECTION FLASHER makes sure it's impossible for both flashers (HAZARD and DIRECTION) to operate simultaneously.
    If the direction indicator stalk is ON (LEFT or RIGHT), when the HAZARD is pulled the DIRECTION FLASHER disengages and the HAZARD FLASHER takes over.
    IF the HAZARD switch is then pushed OFF, the HAZARD FLASHER disengages and DIRECTION FLASHER re-engages to operate the LEFT or RIGHT indicators as previously set.
Here is the full circuit diagram - I don't expect anyone to understand my weird logic - but it might inspire another 'complexity nutter' like me to design logic circuits using changeover relays - not a cheap option but I had most of the components lying around....and it keeps me out of trouble!
Image
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Re: Clan JO JASON - some lecky mods

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:12 pm

Sounds complicated but very good , your as mad as me re. electrics :) :lol:
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Re: Clan JO JASON - some lecky mods

Post by 617sqn » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:24 pm

Member No. 7500, and Stan's best mate.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - some lecky mods

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm

617sqn wrote:viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18843

Andy G
Oooo yeah!

Forgot about that one. I'd even posted something about certain pull switches to avoid (cheap/bad quality). :oops:
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Re: Clan JO JASON - some lecky mods

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:51 pm

Dave ' Linwood ' Lane wrote:Sounds complicated but very good , your as mad as me re. electrics :) :lol:
Yer but you are much neater.

You'll see when I post pictures of the hardware installed in a couple of days time! :lol:
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Re: Clan JO JASON - refit of 'improved' comp transaxle mount

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:34 pm

Gear change has been a bit hit or miss recently and I've been getting an annoying random rattle /knock from behind the rear firewall.

Inspection of the very old STD transaxle mounts revealed delamination in one mount plus sinkage. The sinkage in the rubber meant the transaxle had dropped such that the gear change rod had sunk towards the bottom of the central hole within cross member (but not touching). Thinking this might be the cause of the poor gear change and maybe also the cause of the random rattle/knock, I decided to bite-the-bullet and re-fit Mike's competition mounts.

Moose's Mk1 transaxle mounts...
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The rubber within these mounts is minimal making them very stiff but unfortunately they transmit nearly ALL of the transaxle noise into the cabin. This made input-shaft bearing rumble plus the inherent whine from straight-cut CR cogs on 3rd and 4th last time I used them, a bit wearing. A noisy cabin is OK for a single purpose competition car but mine is very much a road car atm.

:idea: So this time I decided to fit Mike's Mk1 comp mounts onto a bed of rubber in an attempt to cut down the noise transmission through the rear cross member.

A rough computer sketch of the 'faux rubber' gaskets fitted between transaxle mount and rear Cross member (gaskets coloured orange in the sketch....)
Image
A solid proper rubber pad about 1/8th inch thick would be ideal but unfortunately I had nothing like that in the garage to hand. Found a spare 'rubber' car mat about 1/16th inch thick and cut out 2 sets of gaskets. Not ideal - especially as the mat is made from a 'faux rubber plastic' (albeit relatively soft plastic ) which obviously won't be as good at insulating sound/vibrations as real rubber. Given the lack of thickness in the mat, I made 2-ply gaskets for each mount.

I also enlarged the cross member bolt holes quite a bit to ensure that the comp mount bolts don't touch the cross member. Finally I added a third 'faux rubber' gasket between the washer and the cross member.

Result. A moderately-major reduction in noise transmission - I think a set of real rubber pads would make it a step better.

Now my 70's cassette player is louder than the transmission (and exhaust) :) ! If I ever stumble across a suitable proper rubber pad I'll change the gaskets to see what's what. But I can at least now live will this level of noise.

Happily, the stiffer competition mounts have restored the gear change to probably better than new - very positive and precise! :D The comp mounts plus rubber gaskets have raised the line of the gear-change mech back into the middle of the crossmember central hole.

However the rattle /knock behind the firewall is still present - albeit less so :( .

Since found the source of the rattle ...BOTH rear Protech dampers are knocking (they are nearly new :evil: ). Discovered the knock by grabbing/pulling each drive shaft up and down with one hand on the damper body (whilst standing below the car on a lift). My GAZ ones went the same way and that's why I changed to Protech :| . Must be some poor quality valves in these dampers :? !

I'll just have to live with the damper knock unfortunately ... maybe they will quieten down when the weather gets warmer and the oil thins a bit ...who knows?
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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent REAR light changes

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:32 pm

Previous round rear LED lights were a bit too big a diameter for the engine cover and they were not particularly well-fitted and eventually worked loose.

So decided to go back to a more fitting shape for the Clan with regard to the rectangular nature of the STD Clan rear lights. The new lights are less than half the weight ..

I had to make new alum sheet inserts and intended to buy EXACTLY the same as the old perforated sheet but EBAY pictures FOOLED me in terms of the scale of the perforations - the new stuff has tiny holes so it almost looks like a solid sheet. Look carefully and you can see the older larger perforated sheet in the centre underneath tha CLAN badge ... the new stuff was too short to reach the centre d'oh :oops: !

These are all LED ... understandably purists will hate them regardless...sorry! :)

1. Lights OFF
Image

2.TAILS
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3. BRAKE: centre low level -easily seen from distance - High-level brake light in rear window is mainly visible in traffic from above (cant see it in this picture)
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4. DIRECTION Right - begin sequence
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5. DIRECTION Right - END sequence
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6. DIRECTION Left - begin sequence
Image

7. DIRECTION Left - END sequence
Image

8. HAZARDS - begin sequence
Image

9. HAZARDS - END sequence
Image

10. REFLECTORS below the raised (from std) bumper
Image

I have changed the front PODS recently too ..more later.
Last edited by Lotus-e-Clan on Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:41 pm

Very smart i must say :D
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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by The Nun » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:51 pm

Like the latest Audis but based on an old idea from the 60s when the Ford Thunderbird had the first sequential indicator lights but using separate light bulb of course, always thought it a good idea, makes you take notice more.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by bks974c » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:02 pm

Nice work.

Nice and clear unlike some of the modern ones where you can't see the indicators when the brake lights are on.

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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by cov_climax » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:26 am

Hi Peter, hope you are well?

Putting the lights in the lid has the added advantage of fooling the rest of the population that your car is on its side - when you're roadside in the dark with engine lid up tweaking the beast. :D

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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:05 am

cov_climax wrote:Hi Peter, hope you are well?

Putting the lights in the lid has the added advantage of fooling the rest of the population that your car is on its side - when you're roadside in the dark with engine lid up tweaking the beast. :D

Brian

Been waiting for someone to spot the flaw in the idea!
:lol: Wonder what plod would think :o ?

Talking of health Brian- no, I'm not well atm - came down with this nasty flu bug yesterday and took to my bed.

Otherwise I'm as 'fit as a butchers dog' (but you have to imagine the vegetarian version of that). I guess you are doing well. Maybe get to a National again one day ...

Thanks for comments peeps. More bits and bobs on developments as soon as I'm fit again. :) Clan004
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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by The Nun » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:50 pm

You could split the engine lid half and half so it opens like a book then the lights would be vertical each side when open, folk might think it was a bus in the dark then and give you more room :D
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Re: Clan JO JASON - recent light changes

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:07 pm

The Nun wrote:You could split the engine lid half and half so it opens like a book then the lights would be vertical each side when open, folk might think it was a bus in the dark then and give you more room :D
Not such a bad idea :) . Save banging my head when working on it too. And i wouldn't have to put the lid down when raising it on my ramps (low garage roof)
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:49 am

Copied & Pasted from Dave's readers car to prevent clogging his thread with high viscosity Evans coolant.., :lol:
moose wrote:I have never been able to make my mind up about EVANS. I prefer the idea of some pressure to pack the coolant onto the hot areas inside the engine. From all the info i have read and what i have learned is if there is the correct amount of pressure to allow the water to flow efficiently and keep it packed onto the back of the exhaust valve seats it will remove more heat and prevents localised boiling .
Yes that's more the case with water based coolant ..the pressure raises the boiling point. Evans boils at 180 C so you already have more head room than water @ 10 psi.

I do understand your point about flow and pressure ..I had the same thoughts.

In practice the main issue with Evans flow is the increased viscosity. I have tried lots of different coolant hose routings through my Laminova. At one point i had a load of right angled bends and a 3/way (central heating) valve in the 5/8th heater hose circuit. There is an additional 13L/min coolant booster pump in this circuit and it couldn't cope with so many restrictions so I had to simplify the system to recover flow.

The main EWP80 copes fine with Evans BUT it is much much more difficult to get rid of air locks from the front of the car despite using the EWP80 at full flow to push it through. The answer was to leave it overnight and try again.

In addition to this, I've had personal email from Davies Craig to say that they would expect their EWP80 to fail earlier in service using EVANS due to the higher viscosity. I've since been using Evans for a number of years in two cars that have identical EWP80 pumps. So far no sign of impending doom and it's a risk worth taking given the benefits of using Evans in an infrequently used car. BTW, DC were gob-smacked to hear that I'd been using an original spec EWP80 for 12 years. They didn't expect that kind of service life out of the original bearings and seals - they had subsequently uprated units to ceramic bearings!

The main problem with Evans is the lower Specific Heat compared to water which means you need faster flow through the entire system to compensate. Evans picks up heat very quickly but absorbs less heat per unit volume than water. The answer to this problem is to tune the system for faster flow - fortunately the EWP80 easily meets this requirement. I haven't tried it but I expect the Imp pump would not flow enough at lower revs to remove heat in traffic.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:00 am

Peter.

Yes another issue with Evans is oil temperature control - Oil at 125 C for long periods is a disaster for an Imp. Fortunately the Clan is currently running at normal temps using Evans. This winter I had to turn down the EWP80 flow because it was running too cool at 70C.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by 617sqn » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:48 am

So, basically what we are concluding here then is that Evans can be a superior product, over and above standard water/antifreeze, but ONLY if there are significant additional modifications. Therefore more suited to an Imp specifically modified throughout for competition work ?

A bit of a tortuous route to take for the average punter with only light personalisation of his steed, me thinks. I'll stay with Bluecol and a temperature gauge ! :lol:

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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:50 pm

617sqn wrote:So, basically what we are concluding here then is that Evans can be a superior product, over and above standard water/antifreeze, but ONLY if there are significant additional modifications. Therefore more suited to an Imp specifically modified throughout for competition work ?

A bit of a tortuous route to take for the average punter with only light personalisation of his steed, me thinks. I'll stay with Bluecol and a temperature gauge ! :lol:

Andy G
Yes I think you are right. But that said I haven't tried it in a std Imp system and I don't know anyone who has.

Evans have got bad press because it has two essential differences in material properties compared to a water:glycol mix that, ON PAPER and IN THEORY, appears to be disadvantageous compared to PURE water and folk latch on to theoretical half truths to support their case. Namely, lower specific heat and higher viscosity. In practice, these properties can be equalised/neutralised/harnessed if you understand how.

The fire-risk thing is mainly folk making installation mistakes for use within extreme applications.

The '180C seizure' issue is folk misunderstanding/not making the link between water and oil cooling and some folk are just feckless ....the most famous example of that can be found on YouTube - a chap 'hill trailing' off road at very low speed using high revs on a dirt bike in 30+C ambient heat -he thought it would be OK with Evans at 180C! It's not meant to run 180C 'systemic' - the 180C Evans advantage is to prevent LOCAL boiling and delamination of coolant at the interface attached to combustion chambers, liners etc etc.
A personal demerit for those who thought 180C was an upper systemic limit. :wink:

I think for Evans, it would be a different story if it was less-expensive. Most folk cannot afford/don't want to do the spend to develop their cooling system to suit, or risk any loss of a premium-priced coolant. Others worry about not having spare Evans easily available for top-ups if leaks do occur on trips. Evans is re-useable which helps. When engine swapping I needed about 100ml extra Evans to account for losses when removing hoses etc. I guess less-careful mechanics will make you pay through the nose if you left it with them to do.

Some folk simply don't want to modify their classic...and why should they? That said, there are cars that have std systems quite suitable for Evans conversion (sufficient flow rate/low heat generation) and other that do not. I know folk with Lotus 912 engines that use Evans in an otherwise unmodified system with no apparent issues.

It's a shame, because one of the biggest advantages for the classic car owner that use their car infrequently is Evan's extremely low-degradation impact on cooling systems during inactivity. HGs /WRs /steel liners do not corrode and water pump seals don't stick and tear on re-start recommissioning, alloy & cast iron waterways don't corrode, heater and rad internal matrices remain in tip top condition. I think that must be why Jay Leno uses Evans in his fleet. With that many cars lying inactive -it's a big money saver in the longer term. This is a big plus for me having previously suffered a failed water pump (Lotus) and WR corrosion (Clan) due to 'storage deterioration' on more than one occasion in my classics.

For the racer, apart from tuning the cooling system to suit, there are safety issues concerning spillages - Evans is massive slippy! Track -owners /stewards don't like it. But the storage advantages of Evans applies to race cars that lie dormant too.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by gr88 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:00 pm

Hi its me again. 8)
Sorry , I didnt realise you had to do so many changes to get Evans to work. I'll post the graph on cooling again. (why did photobucket become charge a lot for nothing ?)
Image

The problem is lack of cooling, you are only getting at most 60% cooling versus water. Old half broken cooling systems on old cars is the last place you need evans ! A neighbour put Evans in his Sunbeam Tiger with predictable results, one cooked engine covered in slime lol.

Recent news is BMW's problems with fire caused by the OE cooling system leaking onto the the manifold. No car car manufacturer uses Evans as OE standard cooling ( a few say DO NOT USE EVANS, you will lose your warranty)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lames.html

BMW with their crook helping 'keyless' car stealing craze, have now managed to bring fire to rise insurance costs !

Fluids take the easiest route, in a engine perhaps EVANS cooling will not flow like water based coolants ? causing hot spots, who knows ? is it worth the risk ?

The next point is Evans really take the piss with pricing ! I am sure tesco/costco/aldi /liddle cheapest gycol based antifreeze at 100% no water would be just as good as Evans at not cooling your engine !

We will just have to disagree on Evans, ps nice car !
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by RoyBlunt » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:07 pm

Just a (hopefully useful) bit of chemical info on this subject.

Our 'normal' antifreeze mixtures contain ethylene glycol whereas I believe (have't used it so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) the Evans product is based on propylene glycol. There is quite a difference in properties between the two.

1. Ethylene glycol: Melting point* -13 degrees C, Boiling point 197 degrees C. Very toxic if ingested.

2. Propylene glycol: Melting point* -59 degrees C, Boiling point 188 degrees C. Very low toxicity if ingested (it is actually used in foodstuffs as E490).

I've put an * by the melting point as it might appear to the uninitiated that ethylene glycol wouldn't be a very good antifreeze as it freezes at -13 degrees C. However adding these glycols to water lowers the freezing/melting point of the mixture very effectively which is why it is used with water as an antifreeze. 100% ethylene glycol wouldn't be particularly effective as an antifreeze and coolant in a road car used in cold climates because of its relatively high freezing/melting point- the most you would want (for optimum antifreeze properties) is a 55:45 ethylene glycol:water mix. I can't comment on whether using 100% ethylene glycol as coolant would cause other problems but don't really see any point for normal cars.

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Re: Clan JO JASON - Cooling mods

Post by bazzateer » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:59 pm

Dave ' Linwood ' Lane wrote:Interesting and informative .
So now its been like this for a while do you think the reverse ram air flow a better system than standard , is this more suited to a Clan or do you think a standard imp would benefit .I see lots of development going on here.
Thanks for posting :D
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by benwick3 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:35 pm

I did use a 100% Ethylene Glycol as coolant in my original Clan as I was having problems with boiling when I started racing. With it's higher boiling point it did work. However, when the hose failed to the heater as I finished practice at Lydden Hill I can confirm that the drenching of my feet with it a 100 degrees plus was extremely painful. I fitted a larger radiator instead and went back to a normal concentration of antifreeze and water.

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Last edited by benwick3 on Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clan JO JASON - EVANS chat

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:07 pm

GR88... I will not try (or indeed want) to convert you. :lol:

My Journey with the EVANS:
I don't tend to take the word of others I prefer to examine practical effects for myself.
You can only get control and problem-solve effectively if you understand the problem.

So I recreated the problem by performing a simple experiment (a very simple, reproducible, experiment).

For me, the turning point in understanding followed this simple experiment which demonstrated the essential characteristic differences of EVANS compared to WATER when equal heat energy is applied to both for a set period -(followed by a cool-down phase) (see graph below).
Image
Key Observations:
    • 1. Evans heats-up MUCH quicker than water (same energy input applied) which is related to the difference in specific heat.

      2. Water proved it's an EXCELLENT heat buffer compared to EVANS. The rate of temperature rise for WATER began to plateau above 60C, thus demonstrating it's an excellent buffer of heat energy and a good insulator (common knowledge).

      3. The temperature of EVANS rose at a more linear rate compared to water and continued to rise AFTER heat was REMOVED! Evans is a poor buffer of heat compared to water and a poor insulator.
Practical considerations for WATER (as a coolant) arising because WATER is an EXCELLENT heat buffer.
Because water IS an excellent heat buffer, it releases heat VERY SLOWLY. This is the principle reason why the climate at the seaside is less extreme than inland areas. It's also the reason why, if you pass water through a radiator TOO quickly it will not efficiently release its heat. So car manufacturers tune their cooling system flow rates with the compromise set between heat pick-up and heat release. They are not inclined to fit oversized radiators for obvious reasons, -so coolant flow rates have to be specified to suit...not too fast, not too slow.
The practical limitations of EVANS as a coolant in a water-tuned system because EVANS is a POOR heat buffer.
If you replace a water-based coolant with EVANS in a MARGINAL cooling system tuned (flow-rated) for water, the temperature of EVANS will rise much quicker than water which means oil temperature will rise more quickly too. However, because EVANS is a poor buffer of heat it will release proportionally more of its heat than water at the radiator (flow-rated for water). That sounds like a 'swings and roundabout' situation where possibly there is no sum-difference between the two coolants. But there is more BAD NEWS for those doing EVANS conversions into MARGINAL cooling systems specifically tuned for water. Evans will also release more of its heat into the walls of ALL of the waterways on the way to the radiator- which means SYSTEMIC HEAT SOAK occurs more quickly compared to water. And oil temperature rises more quickly as a result.

THE SOLUTION: - Tune the cooling system to suit the characteristics of EVANS by Increasing the coolant flow rate. Increasing the flow rate of EVANS increases the transfer of heat to the radiator and increases the heat pick-up from the water jacket too. EVANS picks-up heat energy just as quickly as water but 'runs hotter' for the same energy input. Bear in mind that 'temperature' is simply a measurement of the heat released (from the coolant) transferred to the measuring device. Evans will show a higher temp (demo'd in the experiment above) because it is releasing its heat more quickly than water.
Fortunately electric water pumps are easily tuned for flow rate so are very suitable for Evans conversion.
Increasing the rad size alone is not the solution ..all you will do is create a large temperature delta between rad and water jacket with the potential for catastrophic heat/cool shock damage... particularly bad for engines with NIKASIL coated alloy liners (like the Lotus 900 engine and others -eg BMW). For the same reason, increases in flow rate needs to be gradual. Large shifts from no-flow to full-flow is not a good idea.

Oil temperature:
Folk I know who have converted to Evans have reported that oil temps are higher - and oil pressure falls proportionate to temperature increase. You therefore need to increase oil cooling when using EVANS. Increasing the coolant flow rate helps to reduce heat transfer to the oil - but as I said. EVANS will heat soak the system more quickly than water so it's sensible to increase oil cooling IF necessary. I run a Laminova. I've had to flow-rate it for EVANS too. If you run an oil radiator then optimise air flow through the rad etc.

The good points once the system is tuned to suit EVANS.
1. Quicker warm-up than the previous water-based system. Including quicker oil warm-up.
2. Predictable and reliable cooling performance.
3. No significant pressure within the system.
4. No corrosion.
5. Reduced cavitation - the Imp head tends to pit badly between No2 and No3 when using water as a coolant.
6. Excellent protection during periods of inactivity (preserves pump seals, WRs etc)
7. Re-useable
8. Exclusivity - not for cheap skates - therefore has snob appeal! :lol:

EDITED: for spelling as usual! Clan004
Clan004
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