Meltdown Motorsport - In the bleak midwinter

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Engine rebuild completed

Post by Dave in Oz » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:34 am

benwick3 wrote:At some time dump the thackery washers as they will just keep failing. Replace with rubber cup washers .

Pete Richards
That's interesting, I replaced my rubber washers with thackery as a couple of the (lower) rubber ones failed after a year...
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Engine rebuild completed

Post by Meltdown » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:24 am

The thackery washers as originally supplied were black steel, the ones that came yesterday look like cadmium plated. We shall see if that makes a difference.

Time now is 1:15am thursday. I leave for work at about 7am, will get home shortly after 5...and there's SOOOO much to do still. Haven't even started her up yet... PANIC!!!
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:44 pm

Thursday, get home from work and straight into garage for final fettling. Go to bed late.

Friday, get up at crack of, sort out things to take with us, start the car for the first time (yay!) get the road wheels and reg plates on then go for a drive to bed things in. Decide to take the car to t'truck for loading and...conk out a mile away from it :cry:

Start to walk to t'truck in what was glorious sunshine which then turned into rain :cry: Get to t'truck and reconnect tachograph wire on battery, attempt to start it up...slight glimmer then nothing :shock: Inspect battery connections to find one post has melted to half its original size :shock: :shock: Can't have tightened the connector fully :roll: Make thoroughly dejected call to Beloved who flicks straight into calming 'we can sort it' mode, comes down with lunch, baccie (of all the times to forget to bring ciggie-making material :roll: ) and common sense. Pop round to our truck-fixing friend Milan who comes back with us complete with quick-fix:- Take one big nut, machine out the thread until it fits loosely over a standard size battery terminal, pop it on then blow-torch it and melt some solder into the gap. Remove before it cools down too much to reveal a fresh battery post. Simples :D

Take t'truck to car and load up, plan is to get to Cadwell then seek advice on how to fix things. Eventually get there by late o'clock, unload car and reorganise the stuff in the box so we can sleep.

Saturday, start car up with Andy Jones and others looking on, decide that timing is somewhat retarded. Can't remember who spotted it but the crank pulley had moved along due to a loose bolt. Here I blame the engine builder of course :roll: Borrow socket from Simon Benoy and add loctite this time. Get out on track for practice.

Practice/qualifying:- Heavens open whilst in assembly area. Car warms up nicely (got the nouveau oil temp gauge fitted) and we’re let off the leash at last. Manage three laps or so, learning the circuit and trying not to repeat my Donington spin before the power drops off. Decide to return to paddock but can’t get up the hill so am now parked up at track edge just before slip road causing red flag (sorry gents). Get a tow in, Beloved finishing the journey from scrutineering bay to paddock (glad Her Ladyship elected to bring the car). Found the drank pulley bolt had come adrift again…but this time had gone awol. Qualified second-last in front of an Abarth. Quite chuffed under the circumstances.

Frantic search ensues, lots of people helping (thank you all) and eventually hear the news that David Heale was prepared to lend me one from his spare engine – what a splendid fellow! Smother bolt thread with loctite and tighten up FT.

Race 1:- Wet, wet and thrice wet! Sent out onto track and pootled round sussing out the watersplashes/rivers. Yellow flags out at Park, Roger Godfrey (last years’ champion) had aquaplaned into the barrier. Form up on grid to be presented with ‘race delayed’ board. Had a good chat with the marshals & Abarth driver, giggled when course car sped through pit lane sending a wall of water over onto track and into open door of mini! Meeting eventually cancelled for the day.

Sunday:- Pop to paddock office and discover they’ve rejigged the timetable so we’ll get two races! Check fluids etc and get changed ready for the off. Rained again but lighter this time. Form up on grid, see red lights go out and nail it off the line in my first ever race! Cars getting tangled up so blast past making up four or five places before the first corner! Lose a position at Charlies but carry on. By lap two notice that power’s dropping off a bit, oddness. Not too bad so keep going. Lap three, power’s definitely not what it should be – shame as car’s handling well in slightly slippery conditions. Have been staving off Austin A40 until now but oil temp’s going up (water’s fine) oil pressure not quite what it should be either so pull in off the track. Back in paddock find timing out yet again, this time dizzy’s moved. Recheck timing and secure dizzy down with tie wrap as backup (thanks Andy).

Go to start up for race 2 to hear nasty knocking sound from engine… methinks a big end has gone…again.

Huge thanks to everyone who helped out, details in HSCC/HRSR thread.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by sammy the sturgeon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:11 am

By ek lad wi alll thee fettling tha'd o thewert it ed be reit bi na!
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by ImpManiac » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:32 pm

Oh. Not good at all. :( Perhaps you have more information to go on this time, though, with your observation of oil temperature and pressure not being right.

I wonder whether or not the strip down will yield exactly the same results as last time - same cylinder, etc. - or whether it is a different cylinder that has gone bad. Hmm.

IM 8)
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:16 pm

Not good Nick , im thinking oil feed problems , my other thought was chuck it in the bin and start again , not really an option though :roll:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by apeximp » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:24 pm

Am gutted for you nick ! Any further new news ?
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:46 pm

sammy the sturgeon wrote:By ek lad wi alll thee fettling tha'd o thewert it ed be reit bi na!
Aye but it ain't, what wi alll tha' rushin'.

Have deliberately kept away from the car for a couple of days in order to regain some modicum of sanity - not to mention sleep. Normal service will resume shortly.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by tomcat » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:28 am

Hi Nick
Sorry to hear the bad news. :shock:
As you say probably best to have a 'short' break and then re-examine.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:41 am

Bearings from left to right:- No1 main, Nos1 & 2 be, no2 main, nos3 & 4 be. Comments please :D
Crank and rods are ok which is good. Nowhere near as much swarf in the oil as before.

Image
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by sammy the sturgeon » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:25 am

ermmm - wel oiling issues - but you thoroughly cleaned them out!
Another thought that comes to mind is,
Is the crank straight?
are the mains in line in the block?
does the block stregthening kit pull the centre one out of line?

I'm not an engine builder but if its the centre main this time, and was number three before, if the crank was out of line would that block oil flow to number three? and now be a little worse on the block distortion?

feel free to shoot me down, as I say I have little to no experience on this - just thinking aloud.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:42 am

Looks like the centre main was first victim, then BE2 got most of the debris.

I agree with Sambo above....I'd be checking mains alignment (no crank) with the BSK torqued down before pointing the finger again at the oil supply. It might be the BSK spacer blocks do not belong to that block (ie not machined for that block)

Exactly what torques did you use for main studs and BEs?

EDIT: I assume the shells weren't mismatched (meant for a re-grind?).
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by ibbo » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:44 am

the bearings were probably starved of oil when the crank pulley came loose as the skew gear on the crank would float drive to the oil pump and dizzy then become erratic as it went in and out of mesh
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:47 am

GOOD POINT Ibbo! That's more likely given what happened!

The Woodruff key can easily come adrift too!
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by benwick3 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:10 pm

Whilst watching first practice both Ian Toon and I thought that the engine was rattling the last time it came by us before stopping. I would therefore surmise that the initial damage occurred then and that the majority of the damage to the bearings occurred during the running of the first race. I would still say that the initial damage is due to surge and based on experience it occurred at the downhill lefthand bend after the Gooseneck.

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:10 pm

ibbo wrote:the bearings were probably starved of oil when the crank pulley came loose as the skew gear on the crank would float drive to the oil pump and dizzy then become erratic as it went in and out of mesh
I came to this possible conclusion earlier today. My focus was on the timing being retarded, not the driver (sorry, not the thought that the oil pump might not actually be spinning quite as well as it should).
benwick3 wrote:Whilst watching first practice both Ian Toon and I thought that the engine was rattling the last time it came by us before stopping. I would therefore surmise that the initial damage occurred then and that the majority of the damage to the bearings occurred during the running of the first race. I would still say that the initial damage is due to surge and based on experience it occurred at the downhill lefthand bend after the Gooseneck.

Pete Richards
Yes maybe. Or (and?) maybe the pulley clattering against the crossmember? Also the first time the pulley came adrift was on the road on Friday so perhaps this was a precursor. The bolt fell out altogether during practice allowing maximum pulley drift.
I think the chances of the crank being bent are minimal since it was freshly ground, furthermore I don't think the block was distorted at time of rebuild as I checked both be and main bearing tolerances with plastigauge and all was well.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by cov_climax » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:29 am

Nick, i feel your pain - very disheartening, but at least on both occasions you've kept all the expensive bits inside the block :)

if the engine kept running with the pully loose then you can't have lost drive to the pump or the distributor would have stopped going round too. personally even if the pump was getting irregular speed from the gear floating then i can't see it causing a big problem, the pulses would be damped by the volume of oil in the filter and all the cooler pipework you have.

I think i'm with Pete R, either it's surge or a distorted block, assuming both failures have a common cause: then if the crank was freshly ground (between first and second failures? - to a good standard?) then you can rule that out.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by apeximp » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:12 am

Think the engine is re build able ? Or looking for a new one ? I do hope you get things all sorted out for your home race at Silverstone mate !
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Leumas » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:47 am

ibbo wrote:the bearings were probably starved of oil when the crank pulley came loose as the skew gear on the crank would float drive to the oil pump and dizzy then become erratic as it went in and out of mesh

Ibbo, are you saying that without a crank pulley bolt the oil pump can float in and out of mesh and the oil pressure can be erratic as a result....really? can you explain further please so I can get my thinking lined up?

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:00 am

I've been thinking a bit more about the pulley scenario.

I once misaligned a std pulley which (unknown to me at the time) pushed the Woodruff key upwards, out of it's slot and into the sump. The pulley was fully located onto the shaft and bolted well tight so the engine ran with no issues except the std TDC pulley mark was about 3 degrees out. It was a pulley from another engine so I stupidly thought that pulley QC must have gotten bad at some point so I recut a TDC mark.

Now if the same had happened to Melty but the pulley was run VERY loose, then the scroll could migrate off the second Woodruff key and the oil pump would stall also putting the timing out. IF this was the case, then there would be an issue getting the pulley to relocate all the way on the shaft 'cos the scroll would not realign by chance with the second key on the shaft.

A loss of a key should be easy to spot though so would expect Melty to have discovered this by now if it were the case.

Anyway, he can easily rule out the possibility of a floating oil pump scroll on full strip down.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by ibbo » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:36 pm

allan the skew gear on the crank butts up against a hard shoulder on the crank butted up against the skew gear is the sprocket with the chain to drive camshaft both of these gears are a sliding fit on the crank drive is via woodruff keys the crankshaft pulley goes on last and in turn butts up against the sprocket hence if the pulley comes loose or worse in the case of meltdown bolt falls out there is nothing to keep everything butted up against the shoulder of the crank hence the pulleys move on the shaft this in turn means the oil pump can loose drive and the dizzy stop turning causing much popping and banging loss of power which happened to meltdown hope i havnt confused you more :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:08 pm

ibbo wrote:allan the skew gear on the crank butts up against a hard shoulder on the crank butted up against the skew gear is the sprocket with the chain to drive camshaft both of these gears are a sliding fit on the crank drive is via woodruff keys the crankshaft pulley goes on last and in turn butts up against the sprocket hence if the pulley comes loose or worse in the case of meltdown bolt falls out there is nothing to keep everything butted up against the shoulder of the crank hence the pulleys move on the shaft this in turn means the oil pump can loose drive and the dizzy stop turning causing much popping and banging loss of power which happened to meltdown hope i havnt confused you more :D
Yep I reckon you're right Ibbo.

The skew gear just needs to migrate along the crank nose just enough for the oil pump gear to fall out of mesh...even if both keys are present the gears could still fall out of mesh temporarily without the skew gear losing drive from the crank.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:29 pm

This is where an eye-level large warning light connected to a high pressure switch would make it instantly obvious the pressure has gone awol. I must admit I haven't got one. Sensible to have one though cos there's not a chance you'd be looking at the oil pressure gauge at the right time.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by ibbo » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:40 pm

should add the only thing holding the crank pulley on was the fan belt and that was only because the pulley was a deep alloy racing type had it been a standard one when the bolt came out the pulley would have moved the fan belt come off followed by the pulley then everything would really have been free to move on the crank
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:44 pm

The warning light is towards the top of the dash but I've only got the standard switch. Where can I get a high pressure one and at what pressure should it ideally trigger?

Today's been about Beloved and a different (four-legged) kind of horsepower so no time in the garage.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by bks974c » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:57 pm

Last edited by bks974c on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:59 pm

I've got a 20 psi one (which is still to be fitted TBH :oops: ).
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:00 pm

Ok 20 it is then. Where from?
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by bks974c » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:02 pm

Check the edited message :wink:

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:04 pm

DT do a range 15, 25, and 30 psi ...I think mine must be 25 then not 20 psi.

DT high oil pressure switch
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:06 pm

Thank you, I'll call them tomorrow :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Mike Hanna » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:53 pm

Hi. Unless the skew gear has ground out part of the timing case the pump will stay in mesh, just. Anyway once the pump is out of mesh the engine stops. Why are you loosing crank pulley bolts? nose of the crank worn? pulley worn? Oil surge is not the problem. Steve Platts is using the same sump/block plate setup without problems, running longer (and quicker!! :wink: ). This looks to me like a repeat of your Donnington occurrence ( with only a slightly different outcome) and you need to do a thorough inspection of all oil ways and associated components. (Especially around the centre main in the block). Cheers .Mike
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:52 pm

Crank pulley bolt coming loose was purely my mistake at rebuild, no loctite in the first instance and then not enough applied in the paddock once David Heale lent his. The bolt is now thoroughly smothered in the stuff.

BTW I need to replace David's donation and don't have his contact details. Within the realms of the Data Protection Act can anyone advise me on how to achieve this please?

Comforting to know that Steve runs the same sump/bsk assembly.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by benwick3 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:14 pm

I think it is not possible to rule out oil surge as the problem.. Steve Platts may use the same sump and plate with no problems but what about the other variables, the oil pump, standard or longer, and the position and type of oil pickup. These have to be taken into account when determining the cause of the problem along with the condition of the oilways etc. Unfortunately it seems that the Imp engine is susceptible to the type of failure described even when other engines to the same spec can continue for years with no problems.

As regards the 20psi low oil pressure light it will indicate when pressure is low as in the situation with a hot engine at tickover or a complete failure. As regards pressure loss due to surge I can assure you that the reaction time is too slow to pickup the minute fraction of time at zero oil pressure during surge. Similarly it will not be indicated by either an electric or capilliary oil pressure gauge. As I have mentioned many times before I was only able to recognise this problem when I switched to Pi datalogging and specifically logged oil pressure over a race period along with the other parameters.

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:37 pm

/\/There's no denying that that's a distinct possibility. The pump is the longer one c/w spacer plate (and has a bronze gear) and the pickup is as supplied by Mike with the sump.

I have to cover as many bases as I can without knowing the precise reason and hope that I solve the issue. If it was the case of 'spinning on right hand bends' then I'd adopt the 'change one thing at a time' method.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by colin rooney » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:48 pm

why did the front pulley come loose ,also was this the pump that was in the last engine that let go ,and are you 100 % sure you cleaned any foreign body out of the engine when you rebuilt it as this failure has started with the main bearings and the last was the big ends , i cant see it being oil surge as most of the other lads are running the same sump set up and mike himself run it for a few years

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by StuartC » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:48 pm

BTW I need to replace David's donation and don't have his contact details. Within the realms of the Data Protection Act can anyone advise me on how to achieve this please?
Sent you a PM Nick.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:03 pm

StuartC wrote:
BTW I need to replace David's donation and don't have his contact details. Within the realms of the Data Protection Act can anyone advise me on how to achieve this please?
Sent you a PM Nick.
Thank you, Stuart.
colin rooney wrote:why did the front pulley come loose ,also was this the pump that was in the last engine that let go ,and are you 100 % sure you cleaned any foreign body out of the engine when you rebuilt it as this failure has started with the main bearings and the last was the big ends , i cant see it being oil surge as most of the other lads are running the same sump set up and mike himself run it for a few years

col
Yes it is the same pump. I was indeed meticulous in cleaning. After my rebuild I adjusted the pressure relief valve and it was running at about 70psi until the trouble started.
Do me a deal? Employ me for 3 days and pay me for what I'm currently being paid for 5, then I'll have time to do everything!
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colin rooney
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by colin rooney » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:11 pm

Oh right i take it you measured the pump to check it was ok ,just very strange how you can have to major engine failures on the bounce ,also what make of oil filter are you running

col
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Deja-vu

Post by Meltdown » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:19 pm

It will certainly be measured this time!
Filter is IIRC Unipart paper element from Speedy Spares, seems others get them from there too.
Do me a deal? Employ me for 3 days and pay me for what I'm currently being paid for 5, then I'll have time to do everything!
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