Meltdown Motorsport - In the bleak midwinter

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:00 pm

impmann wrote:Nick, could the lack of full throttle be because the pedal isn't a Sport one? Or rather hasn't been redrilled for more pull?
Yes that would solve full throttle, but the linkage is not ideal anyway so might as well kill two birds with one stone. There's a beautifully simple example on the engine stood in their reception but it pulls the rod rather than pushes. Thinking cap is on :wink:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:54 pm

Forgot to mention, car weighs in at 672kg with half a tank of fuel so say 660 when empty. As long as I weigh everything that goes on or off the car I'll have a fair idea of the overall weight. Minimum limit for my engine size is 710kg including driver, I'm a paltry 60kg (say 65kg clothed) so there's not a great difference between minimum and actual :D Some scope for a vehicle diet, though.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by apeximp » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:49 pm

Glad too see u have a entry for round one nick ! Wish I was joining you guys ! But looks very un likely ! But will call the HSCC office on Friday if things change with my family , and if I am given a last min entry will load up and see you all on Sunday ! If not I wish you all the best ,

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:51 pm

Spent yesterday evening & this morning catching up with family, then this afternoon fettling the truck. I've adjusted the rack damper in HBH and hope that this is enough to remove any play...past experience says that the rack's on its way out :roll: I'll give it a short road test and hope that a frantic purchase & fitment isn't needed just yet.

Fingers crossed for you, Jim :D

Don't panic just yet :!:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by CMGBW » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:23 pm

First outing and sleeping in t'truck aborted as heavy rain and a fibreglass roof won't mix when attempting to zed...
(From August 2010!!)

Total rubbish husband of mine... (Mwah, love ya loads) Having lived in a mobile home with a metal roof, steady rain on roof is quite soothing and acts like a lullaby :wink: - ahh sweet - and fibreglass will be a softer sound :)
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by impmann » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:54 am

Nick, If you want a steering rack I have a box of them here. They need gaiters but you are welcome to any of them if you need one in a hurry (yours for a beer). You know where I am... :wink:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:57 pm

Thanks, Tim. It may well be a mad paddock rack change...where's the time gone :?: :shock:

The "must do" list is gradually getting shorter, the rad hot air now has somewhere to go and the transponder is fitted, the battery earth cable was going to be yellowed using 'budgie' coloured insulting tape but it's gone walkabout so, on a hunch and along the lines of 'never throw anything away', I've painted it with the perfectly useable 35 year-old Humbrol enamel I'd last used on an airfix model in the mists of time :D Seat position adjusted, time will tell if heel-and-toe is easier for my awkward ankle. Various other odds and sods also achieved.

No photo's, Baz, you'll just have to bring your camera...just make sure to use soft focus as aesthetics are not exactly a priority for now :roll:

Am currently working in Worcester again, the last time I was there I picked up my tranny from Impecunious :D Traffic home has been kind so far allowing me to get in the garage in good time :D

Don't panic :!:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by impmann » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:45 am

We're aiming to be at Donnington, would you like me to bring one up anyway, Nick?
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:53 pm

impmann wrote:We're aiming to be at Donnington, would you like me to bring one up anyway, Nick?
Yes please, I assume it's in good nick :D Look forward to seeing you both. Any particular beer? I'll make sure the Maitre'D at the hospitality suite is made aware :D

Dindins shortly, then back to the grind.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by tomcat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:59 pm

What day you racing or is it both? :)
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by bazzateer » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Meltdown wrote:No photo's, Baz, you'll just have to bring your camera...just make sure to use soft focus as aesthetics are not exactly a priority for now :roll:
Working this weekend unfortunately :(
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:11 pm

Sunday only, 13:30 is the provisional time.
Baz, rain is forecast for Watford this weekend so the Cons won't want to get wet :lol: We shall miss you and will have to take the camera on your behalf :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by bazzateer » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:14 pm

Meltdown wrote:Sunday only, 13:30 is the provisional time.
Baz, rain is forecast for Watford this weekend so the Cons won't want to get wet :lol: We shall miss you and will have to take the camera on your behalf :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:50 pm

Aah, the Big Smoke. There's always the live timing :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Tiring day

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:55 pm

Crossed some more things off the list this evening. I'm aiming to have the car ready by this time tomorrow bar wash (the car not me...it's not that time of year yet :lol: )and decals. Can't remember if I need numbers on the bonnet? Best get the old piccies out.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by Meltdown » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:54 pm

Three things left to do, realign the steering wheel (it was just plonked on), check the brake balance and stick some numbers on, though that can wait until I know where the championship decals are going. Helmet needs an MSA sticker (there's a couple of people who can do that for me at the event), truck needs clearing out and loading, and I need some sleep...didn't get to bed until after 2am this morning, supposed to be up at 5:30 but changed that to 7 and am now zzzsufferingzzz. Tomorrow will drag I'm sure, but feel a whole lot better about things now the car's done. There's a big list of things still to do - ducting for one - but it will have to wait for now.

Roll on Donington :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by bks974c » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:43 am

Meltdown wrote:Roll on Donington :D

No thats a bad idea - keep it the right way up and out of trouble :lol:

Good Luck

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by colin rooney » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:05 pm

Good luck on sunday nick hope you enjoy your 1st race

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by Meltdown » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:17 am

bks974c wrote:
Meltdown wrote:Roll on Donington :D

No thats a bad idea - keep it the right way up and out of trouble :lol:

Good Luck

Scott
I was going to paint "P.T.O" on the underside :lol:
colin rooney wrote:Good luck on sunday nick hope you enjoy your 1st race

col
Thanks, Colin :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by Meltdown » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:25 am

Car's in the truck (which behaved itself this time), most things packed, will load everything else tomorrow morning then an early lunch in Warwick, short stop in Coventry and then up to Donington :D

Don't panic :!:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by daysineuropa » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:53 am

Good luck helping uphold Imp honour!
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by impmann » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:04 am

Good luck, Nick... sadly change of plan this end means we won't be there to cheer you on. Sorry!!! 8)
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by ImpManiac » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:18 pm

Meltdown wrote:I was going to paint "P.T.O" on the underside :lol:
Now there's a thought... :wink:

The best of luck for your first race, Meltdown. I hope you have a great time! 8)

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:19 pm

Good luck Nick , just stay safe and have fun :D
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - Race ready...ish

Post by apeximp » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:15 pm

Have a good one nick , sadly won't be there and can't make cadwell as will be in Germany that weekend for launch of new Mercedes A class in Berlin but hope to do a test in April and race at Silverstone in May !
Hope to read all about it next week along with all the photos !

Enjoy !

Jim

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Meltdown » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:20 am

(Damn and blast! I'd typed loads here, looked away for a mo and accidentally hit the escape button so lost the lot :evil: )

Very briefly as I'm cream crackered, she ran sweet in very soggy conditions until the end of practice lap 7 whereupon the engine felt wrong. Switched off and coasted off track. Initial thought is a big end about to expire - nasty rattle. Full story tomorrow.

Goodnight.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Meltdown » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Arriving saturday evening we were made most welcome by the Imp racers already there, got the car unloaded and sorted things in the truck to make it useable. Found that the roof leaks right above where my head would have been so moved the futon and strategically placed a bucket :roll: The rain got steadily heavier late evening but we had the best sleep for ages - over 7 hours :D

Awoke to a soggy paddock, signed on and got the car through scrutineering (couple of minor points to address, also need to get a certificate for the cage) then got prepared for the practice session. The rain was getting heavier again once on track and I began my first lap of Donington not knowing quite where to go or how much grip there was, let alone how the car handled. It transpired that there was very little grip but the car turned in well and followed a fairly neutral line, but touch the throttle a wee bit too much and the back end would step out making my somewhat amateur lines even worse. This caught me out at Coppice on lap three and I came to a halt on the grass just off the black stuff. Rejoining after the field had gone through I got on with the business of finding my way without worrying about a fast time ( :lol: ) letting people through as they came up behind.

The first 10 minutes were untimed and the start of qualifying was signalled by a flag, I began stringing things together over the next lap but exiting the last chicane I felt a change in the engine, deciding to back right off then switching off to coast to the nearest marshalls' post. They pushed me through the gap and I heard them discussing where to put me, I told them I was camped close by and they pushed me to the truck, bless 'em.

Lid off and time to find out what's wrong. Fuel pump, check. Spark, check. Plug leads in place, check. Biting the bullet I started her up whereupon nasty noises greeted me, and the tiniest blip on the throttle leads me to believe it's a big end bearing faliure. Game over, insert new coin :roll: I suppose i was lucky, Jon Orr's engine expired in spectacular fashion when a rod bearing cap made a bid for freedom, going through the block but remaining intact so it looks like a bolt faliure. Bad luck, Jon. Hope you get it sorted for your next outing.

This left three Imps for the race. Simon went off at the first corner then pushed hard to get back through the field. A Mini spun in front of him mid-race at the last chicane and Simon got a bit crossed-up as a result, sending him into the gravel. We thought he'd make it out but the wheels dug in and he gently toppled onto his side :cry:

Down to two, Steve Platts and David Heale provided great entertainment as they engaged in a race-long battle, swapping places on almost every lap and finishing 4th and 5th respectively. Well done both :D

I was looking forward to a bit of r&r, making up ducting and sorting the throttle & alternator: but now I have an engine to strip :roll: Hmph.

A big thank you to the established Imp racers for welcoming us to the fold, plus everyone who came along to say hello and offer support. One chap pitched up saying 'I was hoping to cheer you on as I was born in your home town' :D He'd come all the way from Scotland for the day :shock: BIGGEST thanks to Pepi for everthing, keeping me sane, fab surprises like a good luck piccy on the truck wall and the cake :D Luv ya heapsly :D

The race is on to get running in time for Cadwell Park next month... Don't panic :!:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:28 pm

Sorry to hear about the engine failure :( ...it's the one thing I dread having ploughed a lot of dosh into mine.

Any external clues / ideas about the cause?

Running Oil temp? (and water?)

What was the running oil pressures?

Sump baffle design?

What rev limit were you using?
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Dave ' Linwood ' Lane » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:29 pm

Bad new there Nick , im sure it will come back better than before though :roll:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:06 am

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:Sorry to hear about the engine failure :( ...it's the one thing I dread having ploughed a lot of dosh into mine.

Any external clues / ideas about the cause?

Running Oil temp? (and water?)

What was the running oil pressures?

Sump baffle design?

What rev limit were you using?
No clues, don't know about oil temp but water was just below the middle of the guage, oil pressure 55 and Mike Hanna's sump. There wasn't enough grip to really generate surge. I'm as baffled as the sump.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:13 am

The following comments are of course pure speculation re: your own unknown issue..but based on personal experience:

55 psi is a tad low for race level revs. I'm running 65 psi with an 8.25 - 8.5 krpm limit - others run 70 -80 psi.

Keep the oil temp below 100C when racing..I guess you know this but was under pressure to get your first race in so no oil temp gauge?

And this will be challenged by many. I'm not a fan of high torque levels for big end bolts even if using uprated jobbies. The only time I've had big ends let go or spin a shell was after my older brother naively overtightened the BEs on my first std Imp engine rebuild and after I used 30 Ibft on uprated bolts because that's what the spec sheet recommended for the bolts. I now stick to a final BE torque of 18-20 Ibft (with uprated bolts) after 5 re-torque cycles and have had thousands of trouble-free hard running miles at sustained high rpm on a close ratio box. Which proves to me at least, that high torque levels on BE bolts are unnecessary. Which begs the question why do people run the risk of BE distortion which probably occurs more frequently than folk will want to admit to. I know about the procedure for checking for distortion after applying increased torque levels and it's a laborious process if done properly, so it's all too tempting for even the most experienced (but busy) engine builder to torque up tight and hope for the best.

Of course purely speculative comments based on personal experience .

Hopefully you will find the true cause of your current problem and have at least some action you can take so it won't happen again....nothing worse than not knowing what really went wrong and then repeating the mistake. But stating the obvious... it's either an engine build or an installation issue.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by benwick3 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:48 pm

Sorry to here about your problems. Sounds like a classic case of rapid big end wear due possibly to oil surge. Alternatively I believe you had a problem obtaining oil pressure during your initial engine start. This could have caused initial wear of the oil dry bearings which rapidly increases once under hard use.

55psi oil pressure would be fine for a competition engine based on information given to me by Ian Carter. Oil temperature upto 120 degrees is no problem with modern oils and some semi synthetics allow upto 150 degrees although I wouldn't recommend it. Always best to keep oil temperature close to water temperature.

Standard sized ARP big end bolts torqued to 25lbs/ft result in no distortion of the big ends . Torque figure for ARP 3/8" bolts is 43lbs/ft and Ian Carters recommended figure for Unbrako cap head 3/8" bolts was 39 - 42 lbs/ft. However, if using the bigger bolts and higher torque figures it is necessary bto check the big ends for ovality and machine if necessary to achieve a bore of 1.7705"

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by earby » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:12 pm

i know this wont help but i have built my 998 up for the first time and have messed up my bottom end already. taken it out at the weekend and now need to strip to see what went wrong..very low oil pressure with new shells and new pumpand 10 psi at tickover? im very gutted too..
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by ImpManiac » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:14 pm

earby wrote:i know this wont help but i have built my 998 up for the first time and have messed up my bottom end already. taken it out at the weekend and now need to strip to see what went wrong..very low oil pressure with new shells and new pumpand 10 psi at tickover? im very gutted too..
Was the engine self-built? Did you fit new bearings? Were they matched to the dimensions of the crankshaft journals? Was the cylinder block meticulously clean? Did you have any gaskets or O-rings left from your gasket set when you completed the build? Was the oil pump new?

Sorry, Meltdown. Back over to you. :oops:

Sorry to hear about your woes. I hope you get it all sorted out without any additional drama.

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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Mike Hanna » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Hi all. Bad luck your engine going off song Nick . It is unlikely to be oil surge as the circuit was awash and a standard sumped engine might have survived on it. Steve Platts won the class and finished a very good fourth overall in the dry race using exactly the same sump. He and David Heale had a splendidly entertaining ding dong from lights to flag!. Well done to both. Cheers. Mike
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:39 pm

Thank you all for your comments and ideas, please keep them coming. Life's pretty hectic as usual but once I start investigating I'll be back with photo's if relavent and no doubt plenty of questions. I'll start by dropping the sump and bsk then see if I can move the rods on the crank by hand. I presume that if there's a fair bit of play then the head will have to come off too.
The only contributing factor I can think of at the mo is that the oil cooler isn't ducted as yet, but it lies downstream of the laminova and the water temp was fine, plus the cold conditions make me think that temperatures aren't the issue here.
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:41 pm

earby wrote:i know this wont help but i have built my 998 up for the first time and have messed up my bottom end already. taken it out at the weekend and now need to strip to see what went wrong..very low oil pressure with new shells and new pumpand 10 psi at tickover? im very gutted too..
Very sorry to hear your predicament. Not much fun, is it...
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Meltdown
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:46 pm

Just remembered (and not relavent) from my brief time on track the spigot bush needs replacing. Guess the whole lot's coming out :roll:
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by bks974c » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:30 am

Meltdown wrote: I'll start by dropping the sump and bsk then see if I can move the rods on the crank by hand. I presume that if there's a fair bit of play then the head will have to come off too.
Nick

Most bsk will allow you access to the big ends without removing, start with no 3 as its usually the first to go.

Depending on what you find, should you wish the bottom end can be rebuilt without removing the head.

Scott
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Re: Meltdown Motorsport - In, out, in, out, shake it all abo

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:44 am

Nick

Because the water from the Laminova goes directly to the front rad before returning to the engine, overheated oil @ 120+C in the Laminova won't result in any significant rise in engine water temperature especially in the cool ambient air conditions- assuming you know the exact temperature that your water gauge indicates on the unlabelled scale.

For example, being an anal techie, I monitor the RETURN water temperature in my Laminova /heater circuit BEFORE the water enters the rear rad and the return WATER temp is no more than 40C! And this is when the oil is at it's hottest @ 95C in the Laminova (I also monitor the return oil temp from the Laminova AND the sump oil temp and there can be BIG differences here too! :roll: )

IF high oil temp were THE issue I would suggest you'd notice a drop in oil pressure, if not @ high rpm, then at least at tick over. BTW this is one of the advantages of running a 1300 rpm tick over ...it keeps the oil flowing at reasonable pressure at all times and especially when the oil is stinking hot.

I'd guess your oil cooler circuit is pretty long having linked Lamniova and oil rad together, so it is possible to have a pressure drop and flow problems in long circuits esp when the oil is hot....I assume this will be offset if the engine is built with a high capacity oil pump mind.

Also, with a new engine I changed my oil and oil filter 3 times before NO macroscopically detectable running-in metal debris was found in the paper oil filter and that's with an engine that suffered no consequence, so it might be useful for you to whip the oil filter off and dissect /inspect for debris levels (easier to inspect a canister paper type filter though).

At the end of the day, BE inspection (and mains!) will be most informative. Any scuff /pressure marks on the surviving shells may help to bring about a diagnosis and a cure. Inspection of the oil pump rotor and body will complete the story as they are not unknown to chew themselves up under these circumstances. The Laminova is cleanable (my Mocal version is) but the oil /air rad isn't so easy to clean out and may become a victim.
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