Rally Imp Picture

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Imps and Imp based Motorsport stuff from the olden days and current
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Rally Imp Picture

Post by rally clan » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:31 pm

http://www.rallyretro.com/detailedview. ... &Year=1971

Fergus has a selection of photos of Andy Dawson and some Imps, on the 71 Manx, 78 Galway.
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Post by Basildon310 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:26 pm

Nice! A three headlamp front panel! :wink: :D
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Post by HARTWELL MK1 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:54 pm

looking closely you can see the car has a heated screen as well
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Post by imper » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:31 am

It's LWK 700F, the penultimate works imp, running as a quasi Chrylser UK main dealer car. Interesting to note the damage is limited to the front outer wing, so the front box section strengethening did its job. Most normal Imps would have retired on the spot after a similar impact. And I believe the lighting is down to a five light front panel after its skirmish. :wink:

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Post by rje » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:39 am

I really don't think LWK700F can be described as the penultimate 'Works' car - either it was the last car built or it was 5th last. I assume you have interpreted ALN650H as the last car, but (AFAIK) ALN was built in 1969 when all official Imp rallying had ceased and was never rallied as part of the Works Team (i.e. during the period 1964-1968 that the team existed as a multi-car team and used the Imp as their primary vehicle - don't forget the 1969 Scottish entry was private and the team took holidays to run the car on the event only getting paid because it had come 2nd and Chrysler wanted the publicity). After that, when the primary team car was the Avenger, the Competition Department built (in date order) WYH394H (the original Gp 2 front radiator car) and FHP234L and ran them on UK Championship events for Robin Maunsell and then built (and ran on on the Jim Clark -where it blew up) , RKV408M which had an 1150 and a Hewland box and was subsequently converted to mid-engine before being sold to Finland. That's not to say however that LWK700F was not an important car - did you know it is the only Imp (other than 8305KV) ever to have led an International overall - after Tony Fall retired his Works Cooper S from the lead of the 1969 TAP, Robin Maunsell in LWK was 1st O/A but the car was eating its alloy pulleys, Robin was too tired to notice and eventually it died.

The history of Works team entries in 1968 after the Monte, Circuit and Scottish is very sketchy. I know they ran cars on the London Rally but does anyone know if there was a team entry on the RAC of that year (I am excluding the Motoring News championship entries that most will know about but were essentially 'private')?
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Post by imper » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:42 am

John, Thank you for your information. Obviously your historical information is far greater than mine on the this subject. Yes, indeed I was suggesting that ALN 650H was the last works Imp, or perhaps the last International competing Works Imp. As you probably know there were many motor magazine reports at the time stating ALN was the 'Last Works Imp' and others stating the '100mph Imp'. I do believe that ALN was supposedly built as a press demonstrator, an adverstising package to sell Chrysler UK Competition Department bits. At least I believe that was how Des O'Dell justified the budget / funds once Chrysler UK gave order to stop competition. I agree this period is a 'grey / black' time. This was when Fraser Imp's lost Chryser UK finance too. I have little doubt that, had they continued, Fraser Imps would have captured the British Saloon Car Championship long before the Bevan Imp. I do know that it was at this time (late 1968 or early 1969) when Peter Harper 'purchased' three Fraser Imps, which were pressed into service for his World of Sport TV Rallycross exploits. Funding for this Imp motorsport venture gradually came from Chrysler UK, due to Peter Harper's ongoing TV Rallycross success. And, to get it back to your topic, when the 4WD TV Rallycross cars were in their ascendance, the Imp was pensioned off. The Chrysler paid Carter 1250cc engine and Hewland MK VIII box went to the Competition department. Some time later they were then grafted into the club car RKV408M (CCC mag article I believe - Rallying Chryslers ?) - in the conventional gearbox to the front arrangement. (Whereas Peter Harper ran the ex-Fraser TV rallcross Imp with a mid engine arrangement - gearbox to the back). Talk about anoracks !!!
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Post by Rod » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:07 pm

I am amazed by some of the knowledge available on the history of Imps in rallying. I have pleaded several times for someone to write a history of the Rootes Comps. Dept. I wish someone would get on and do it.
Regarding the 1968 RAC, this was a poorly supported event by the works teams, they were all too busy with the London-Sydney Marathon. I assume this applies to Rootes/Chrysler as well.
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Post by Rod » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:22 pm

Regarding ALN 650H, my understanding was that its build was started as a works rally car, then rally activities were ordered to be stopped and it was completed as a press demonstrator to advertise the parts available from Special Tuning. If you read some of the test reports the car seems a little tamer (R17 cam for example) than a full blown works car would have been. Purely surmise on my part but this car had a London registration (as did most press cars) whereas works rally cars normally had Coventry numbers, so it was registered to be used on the press fleet. Later Chrysler wanted a car to be rallied to gain publicity and the only suitable one around was ALN650H so it became a rally car.
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Post by Rod » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:41 pm

Sorry to be posting in serial format but things keep occuring to me. Does anyone know the whereabouts of ALN 650H? I ask because when I was organising one of the Imp Club PCT's back in about '86 someone told me (don't remember who) that it was parked up in a garage somewhere in Middlesex with light (posibly fire) damage and the owner was refusing all offers to buy. Going back a bit further in 1976 I was looking to buy an Imp Rally car, after my Stiletto had been written off, and I went to look at a supposed "ex-works" car in Watford. It was an absolute heap so I took it no further but in retrospect it could have been a genuine ex-works car. It didn't seem important at the time. Wonder what happened to that one?
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Post by bazzateer » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:39 pm

No trace of ALN 650H on the DVLA enquiry website - probably gone to the great stage in the sky.
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Post by johnh875 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:11 am

Great stuff guys, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
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Post by imper » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:43 am

Rod,
The demise of ALN 650H on the TAP Rally was well documentated in Impressions some years back, including photo's shortly after its roll.
(If you go along to the Rootes Archive Centre and speak to Tim Sutton - a really helpful chap, you can look at the original photographs of the TAP incident). I saw ALN at Humber Road just after it returned, and was told to take whaterver parts I needed from it, as it was considered scrap. Incidentally, immediately after the TAP roll, the team decided it was not worth bringing back to England, but later changed its mind when advised of the significant Portuguese vehicle import duty it would need to pay.
Though grey haired and rickety now, I feel privileged to have been invited to inspect most of the competiton Imps of that era up close, including the Fraser Imp's, Peter Harper's Rallycross Imp's and ALN 650H many times.
And if your looking to tell whether a rally Imp is an ex-works one, there are numerous details to look out for. Perhaps the easiest one to spot is the Lucas silk covered fire resistant cable insulation in the wiring looms - or check with John Edmunds or Clark Dawson.
Keep looking, one might still be languishing out there !!!
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Post by Rod » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:06 am

Hi Imper,
Sorry, I remember now, put it down to a grey-haired & rickety moment! Regarding the Watford car I think it was a rolling shell and having just written off my partially prepped Stiletto it was a decent shell I was looking for. This one was well used and full of holes. I suspect now in retrospect that it may well have been genuinely an ex-works car because things like the front rad, odd brackets etc were well fabricated but then I didn't look too far beyond the rust holes. I suspect it was probably scrapped because apart from possible works provenance (not so important then) it had little else going for it. In the mid-eighties when I was Imp Club Comp.Sec. I asked for info on any works cars still existing. I went to look at a couple of cars advertised for sale as "ex-works" but there was nothing to prove that except the comment "The guy I bought it off said it was", the reg. numbers were not significant and the build standard was not too brilliant.
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Post by impmann » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:28 am

and the build standard was not too brilliant.
There is at least one "genuine ex-Works" car that sold for a vast sum of money in fairly recent memory that had as much in common with a works rally car as my everyday 1976 Imp... I was removed from the auction viewing after commenting as such too!
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Post by Rod » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:11 pm

Hi Tim,
that wouldn't be JDU 48E by any chance?
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Post by ImpManiac » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:19 pm

A very interesting thread! Thank you all! :D Some of you really should get together and write a book or a series of articles.

IM 8)
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Post by Rod » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:40 am

If only someone would! Is there anyone ot there prepared to write a history of the Rootes/Chrysler/Talbot Comps. Dept? There are great books on Ford, BMC and Triumph so why not Rootes?
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Post by impmann » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:46 am

that wouldn't be JDU 48E by any chance?
If thats the reg no of the ex-Walkinshaw one, then yep...
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Post by Useless Eustace » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:36 am

Image

From: classicrallychat.
Last edited by Useless Eustace on Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rod » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:57 am

Yes it is the ex Walkinshaw car. I know it has been reshelled, it was rallied by Steve Brew around '84, not sure whether it had been reshelled then but I saw it back in about '81 (didn't realise at the time that it was this car) when it had a spaceframe rear end, it looked superficially smart but well used so I suspect the new shell happened after this. I saw a picture on the internet of it looking very smart for the auction but didn't see it in the metal although we had a trade stand that weekend at Brands when the auction was taking place.

If you think this was a lot of money an ex-works 1963 Vauxhall VX4/90 (hardly the most successful rally car in the world) has just "not sold" on ebay having been bid up to £24,600!
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Post by impmann » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:42 pm

Some parts on it were proper period stuff, but a lot of it was modern replica or just plain wrong. I'm not going to say anything more as I don't want to potentially offend the new owner of the car, but I certainly wasn't alone in my opinion. I made the fatal mistake of describing it to a chap wearing a TWR poloshirt as a "nice replica"... I was then removed.

Can't believe how much money it made...
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Post by Useless Eustace » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:43 pm

Just for interests sake how much did it make?
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Post by Rod » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:00 pm

Without checking, the top estimate was £12,000, I think it went for something around that.
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Post by impmann » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:48 pm

Yes, it was around that figure - too many beers in the interim to be certain :wink:
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Post by imper » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:34 pm

Rod / ImpManiac,
Just to pick up the thread again, my understanding was that John Edmunds may hopefully publish a book on Works Imps - as I believe John seems to have the most complete information on the subject (John?). There is some written data on Works Imps which is incorrect. For example, even the most authoritive web detail of all things Imp, Franka's site Imps4ever, has a few erroneous comments on both LWK 700F and ALN 650H. (I have previously advised Franka). For example LWK 700F was first registered by Rootes Ltd. in 1968, not 1967 as the site reports. And it did not retire on the 1968 Scottish after rolling, it continued to the finish to assist in winning the 1968 Scottish Rally overall team award for Rootes. The three succesful works team Rootes Imps being Cowan (LWK 700F), Malkin (JVC 123E) and Rosemary Smith (reg. ?). I am sure Rosemary will tell us the reg. no. at Imp 08.
1968 Scottish Rally Team award celebration photo's can be viewed at the Rootes Archive Trust.
My basic source of detail information is from the Transport Souce Books, the ones specialising in individual International rally's, which include reproduced actual Autosport and Motor magazine reports for each year the rally's were run.
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Andy Dawson Imp

Post by Cally » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:49 pm

Just a quick question given the knowledge everyone is showing

What was the Reg Nr of the Andy Dawson Rally Imp built for CCC magazine, I think this was on an H plate. Any other info also welcome

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Post by GURNSIMPS » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:46 pm

do you mean the Imp Andy used to run on zenith carbs?? this was DFL 492C (sad ain't I???) :roll:
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Post by StuartC » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:28 pm

Cally wrote
What was the Reg Nr of the Andy Dawson Rally Imp built for CCC magazine, I think this was on an H plate. Any other info also welcome
The one built for CCC which Paul Davies drove on the '76 RAC in Grp 2 spec was BMH 572H (pic in the Jan 77 mag) According to the article (Our Imp) the group 2 regs, which had been amended at the start of '76, were quite restrictive and they ended up with an 875cc engine with R20 on twin Webers which they were hoping to get 90bhp from. They reckoned total cost of the car was around £1500. They ran with RAC rear springs and standard front springs, Koni shocks, front rad venting through holes in the front inner wings, works style alloy tank, rally ratio gearbox with standard diff and a special tandem brake master cylinder operagting drums around.
There is also mention of an intercooler for the oil plumbed into the water return pipe. Wheels were standard with 155/12 Pirelli MS 35 knobblies.
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Post by rje » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:26 pm

Rosemary's 1968 Scottish car was JRW701E she was 1st in the Gp4-6 combined up to 1300cc class. Robin Maunsell won the Gp3 up to 1300cc class in FRW303C. Malkin was 3rd O/a in JVC123E. Cowan in LWK700F suffered first from collapsed suspension then rolled it but continued to the end for the team award.

It's true I am trying to pull together a history of the Works team '64-68 but it has proven to be a very difficult task to get anything reliable down on paper - not least the definition of what constitutes a Work's car. Richard Sozanski deserves much praise and thanks for all the efforts he has gone to to meet former members of the Competition's Dept technical team and for the info he collected and passed on to me. I would be happy to resume the research if members of the forum would be prepared to help with anything they know for sure.

I think I have a complete list of all cars as defined by registration number and some info on what cars were used on what events. It would help move this on if I could establish a standard list of events the team did every year (if there was a standard list that is). I have photos for many of the cars but there are some I am missing and would welcome help with this.
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Post by rally clan » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:05 pm

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Post by david walters » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:18 am

According to a 1972 Autosport article on Chrysler Competitions Dept (which I keep in my anorak pocket) ALN 650H, described as a 'quasi-works rally imp', was still in the workshop in March awaiting a rebuild in order for an attack on the RAC/Uniroyal/Autosport championship.

I was told by an aquaintaintance of Colin Malkin that he had said the car was eventually sold to Finland, as happened to so many others.
Perhaps there were 2 cars running the same number plate, perhaps not. Maybe one was disposed of in the UK and the spare car sold abroad in order to re-register it and retain extra funds that the accountants were not aware of in order to try and keep the dept afloat. Maybe not.
In any case, good luck to the historians in the club.

And I'd like to order a copy of the book when it's printed.
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Rally picture

Post by Mike Hanna » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:03 pm

Hi. That looks like Robin Eyre-Maunsell about to put his rally jacket into LWK700F on the Circuit of Ireland Rally
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Post by moose » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:27 pm

http://www.rallyretro.com/detailedview. ... &Year=1978

needs more neg camber on the front to handle correctly
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Re: Rally Imp Picture

Post by bryanbrophy » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:33 pm

Car no57 0n the Henley-Forklift Galway International Rally 1978 was "Liam Ormsby-John O'Reilly Ballybofey- IMP 998 group4Class 4.
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Re: Rally Imp Picture

Post by donbarrow » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:00 pm

Hi,

I have just published a colour pic of the 3 works Imps that competed on the 1965 Scottish Rally - http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/don_barrow_biog_201d.png - crewed by Tiny Lewis & Robin Turvey, Andrew Cowan & Don Barrow and Rosemary Smith & Valerie Domleo.

The pic is on my autobiography page http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/autobiography_stage2.html

Don B.
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Re: Rally Imp Picture

Post by david walters » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:06 pm

I think Andrew still has that car Don. (FRW 307C). Tell him you accidentally left a tenner in the glovebox after the event....
Being a canny Scot, I am sure he will hand it back to you!
David
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Re: Rally Imp Picture

Post by KiwiHusky » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:00 am

Here is a picture I recently found in an old book in a second hand shop. It is not titled but looks like Peter Harper doing some giant killing in 1969.

Image

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Re:

Post by bazzateer » Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:29 am

Rod wrote:If only someone would! Is there anyone ot there prepared to write a history of the Rootes/Chrysler/Talbot Comps. Dept? There are great books on Ford, BMC and Triumph so why not Rootes?
Graham Robson covers the Imp competition cars is his 'Rootes Maestros' book.

http://www.motorbooks.co.uk/notes.asp?bookid=85634

It's a good read.
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Re: Rally Imp Picture

Post by Rod » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:49 am

Hi Bazz, I wrote that a couple of years ago! Shortly afterwards I emailed Graham Robson and suggested that he should write such a book. To my surprise he replied saying that he had just finished it and it would be published shortly!

I agree it's a great read and hopefully still available through the Imp Club.
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