FRASER IMP'S

Information / Questions and Discussion -
Imps and Imp based Motorsport stuff from the olden days and current
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FRASER IMP'S

Post by apeximp » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:22 pm

I WONDER IF I CAN GET ANY HELP ON THE COLOUR'S THAT ALAN FRASER HAD HIS CARS IN THE 60'S PAINTED?
I AM HAVING BUILT A RACE REPLICA OF ONE OF THESE CARS AND ALL THE ONES I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN STD BLUE OVER WHITE!!
I HAVE SAW A FEW PICS OF CARS WITH SIMILAR COLOURS BUT WITH A PAINTED (BLUE OR BLACK) FRONT PANEL!! I WONDER IF ANY ONE HAS ANY INFO THAT COULD HELP ME IDENTIFY THIS/THESE CARS AS IT WOULD MAKE A NICE CHANGE TO HAVE ONE THAT DIFFERS FROM THE NORM!!
PS I HAVE SPOKE TO ALAN FRASER AND HAVE HIS BLESSING FOR THIS RE-CREATION!! BUT HE CANT HELP WITH PHOTOS AS HE HAS DUMPED MOST OF HIS RACE COLLECTION STUFF!!!
POSTED ITEMS WILL BE COPIED AND RETURNED IF REQUIRED
THANKS , JIM
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Post by hillmanimp_uk » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:32 pm

best to try ron @impspeed or robin human who have both built fraser replica's.as for colour i belive the nearest is gentian blue (ford).
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Post by apeximp » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:45 pm

RON IS BUILDING THE CAR!!!! (AND I HAVE ALL OF ROBINS PHOTOS ALL READY!)
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Post by hillmanimp_uk » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:47 pm

at least your in good hands! (please stop shouting)
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Post by ImpManiac » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:39 pm

Unless I am mistaken, the blue is Ford Gentian, the white is Rootes Polar White. Someone please confirm these before apeximp goes ahead! :shock:

IM 8)
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Post by Gerry Richards » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:22 pm

Gentian was definitely the most common blue used by Fraser - I think some confusion might arise from him having used other blues over the years. Robin might be able to confirm this.

To some eyes, and in some lights, Gentian actually looks quite a bit lighter than you would imagine. My hillclimb car is Ford Gentian Blue from head to toe and some people comment that they would expect it to be darker than it looks. Period photos of Fraser Imps nearly always look darker than my car does, so maybe the definition of Gentian Blue is open to interpretation, which just confuses matters further!
rcarr

Post by rcarr » Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:11 pm

I was wondering who owned and drove the beautiful Fraser Replica at the Autosport International Show at the weekend?
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Post by bazzateer » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:45 pm

Image

Image

Image
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Nick Brad

Post by Nick Brad » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:00 pm

Is that one of your cars Baz?

Love the colours, was planning something very similar, (just silver instead of white with the silver continuing round the front and rear).
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Post by bazzateer » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:17 pm

No sorry to say! It's Jim's (Apeximp), he emailed the pictures to me so I could put them on the site for him, he doesn't appear to have a Readers Rides thread so I put them here as this is where he asked about the colours.

Blue and silver eh? Nice combo'.

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Nick Brad

Post by Nick Brad » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:31 pm

Just got to get an Imp, lol. Still looking for that project car if anyone has one they want to offload, (impmann hasn't got back to me yet :( )
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Post by johnh875 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:36 am

Well it definitely looks good so far
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Post by ImpManiac » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:09 am

:shock: :shock: That is STUNNING! :) Really love the layout internally and it is as clean as a very clean thing after a really thorough clean.

Nice! 8)

Apeximp, you NEED a Readers' Cars thread. :wink:

IM 8)
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Post by MMCPJONES » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:28 am

Hi,

Great looking car!

I'm interested in the Sparco steering wheel as I fancy one on my Davrian. Is it a standard Imp column and which adaptor did you use?

Thanks,

Martyn
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Post by apeximp » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 pm

hello guys !

1st i am realy crap with computers that is why i havent got this new build fraser imp replica on the site yet. or any photos of my other two now departed imps (californian and caledonian)

2nd the car is being prepaired by ron aspinwall at impspeed. car has been in build for the last two years and is nearly there now!!! , its being built up for the hscc series.

3rd the colour IS WRONG the problem is there is many many copys out there these days and not many colour photos and even less original cars with there original paint colour still on them!! , after the the blue paint was put on the shell both me and ron both felt that the colour should be darker!!
Bob Allen was the key to (hopefully) getting the colour right as he has the prototype K9 sports race car that was built for Alan Fraser but never raced!!! we removed a light pod from the car and colour matched this much darker blue , and as we speak the colour is being changed!! :D

4th the car is the ONLY authorised repilca by Alan Fraser himself of a Fraser Imp i know off and the car is painted in the colours of Ray Calcutt's car from 1966.

hopefully you can get as many photos of it as you want at the next national as long as i dont bin it on the track.

thanks for all your positive thoughts.

jim mckenzie
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Fraser Imp Replica - new pictures added

Post by bazzateer » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:50 pm

Jim has asked me to post these latest pictures....................................

ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
LOOKING GOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!! :D 8)
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Post by deanyboy » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:57 pm

I saw this car when I dropped my imp off for a gearbox and all I have to say is THIS CAR IS FOOKIN AWESOME!!!!! 8) Cant wait to see the finished car, its going to look truely mint.

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Post by chrisastley » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:36 pm

Hi,

I have got to say, that is one very brilliant looking Imp.

However, I may be incorrect in saying this, but, I am sure that it was Tony Lanfranchi's Fraser Imp that had the blue front panel. Having known the late Tony Lanfranchi (well, I fetched him a beer once!) and am also building a replica of his Fraser Imp.

On this webpage:

http://www.imps4ever.info/racing/races/fraser.html

About half way down the page, it shows a picture of Ray Calcutt's Imp at the chicane at Snetterton, this car has the white panel on the front.

More evidence supporting my claim, is, on page 49 of "Down The Hatch" (Tony Lanfranchi's biography) it shows a picture of Tony in a Fraser Imp at Brands in 1966, this car has the blue front.

Like I stated at the beginning, I may be wrong, and i am sorry if I am.

But, even if this car is Tony's or Ray's it is still going to be a superb replica of one ot the greatest Imp racers there was.

Thanks

Chris Astley
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Post by apeximp » Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:34 am

sure you could be right !!! ithe only colour photo i have to go on is a copy of a storie in Autocar with a blue fronted fraser imp V ford anglia and the imp was driven by callcutt !!!

who ever drove the blue fronted car , its a authorised fraser imp from the great man himself Alan Fraser . i did try and get some photos from him at the start of this project but he said all his race stuff is in storage !!#

never mind , nearly there now ...


jim
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Post by Gerry Richards » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:38 am

chrisastley wrote:
About half way down the page, it shows a picture of Ray Calcutt's Imp at the chicane at Snetterton, this car has the white panel on the front.

More evidence supporting my claim, is, on page 49 of "Down The Hatch" (Tony Lanfranchi's biography) it shows a picture of Tony in a Fraser Imp at Brands in 1966, this car has the blue front.
Hi Chris

You could well be right, but don't forget that in that era it was very common for team mates to try each other's cars.
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Post by bazzateer » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:51 pm

Latest photos of Jim's Fraser Replica:
ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
Image LOOKING GOOD TO ME !!! :D 8)
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Post by onomatopoeia » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:02 pm

Very nice :). I notice it's using two binnacles for instruments, I debated doing that myself on the Chamois but wasn't sure if I would ever turn to look at the ones on the left hand side.
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Post by apeximp » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:35 am

major gauges in front of me on the right , speedo in the left one (just for the mot!!)
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Post by bazzateer » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:42 am

Speedo not required for MOT IIRC :wink:
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Post by colin rooney » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:55 am

This car is a credit to jim for his money spent and to ron for his time spent on it i cant wait to go to a track day with jim next year to start setting her up for his 1st race

col
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Post by bazzateer » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:49 am

Another Imp to watch against Simon, Mike, Adrian, Vince and Steve (probably missed someone - sorry) - 2008 is going to be a cracker!
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Post by Rod » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:24 pm

Hi Guys,
Have just come across this thread and have seen that you have come across a problem which has bugged me for 15 years trying to make a living selling model cars & kits. Colours never seem right! First of all they are in the eye of the beholder and secondly when a particular historic car was first built it wasn't actually a historic car! Chances are the guy or firm that built it didn't give a lot of thought to the colour so long as it looked right to him. then when it was repainted or when a later version was built the colour was slightly different because it wasn't seen as being that important. Old colour photos are very unreliable, a few years ago a French model manufacturer built models of the 1953 Le Mans Austin Healeys and painted them light blue, because every photo around appeared to show them in that colour. They were actually light green! There are numerous racing Aston Martins, Bentleys, Ferraris etc around whose owners claim are the right colours put them together and they are all different. My advice to anyone building a model of a particular car was to go to Halfords pick a colour that looks right to you and then stick with it for any future models of the same make. That way at least YOUR collection matches!

The conclusion is really, don't worry too much about getting it exactly right, the chances are the guy that built the original didn't!
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Post by Grahame59 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:02 pm

Rod wrote:Chances are the guy or firm that built it didn't give a lot of thought to the colour so long as it looked right to him. then when it was repainted or when a later version was built the colour was slightly different because it wasn't seen as being that important.
That's absolutely right, Rod.

Take Aston Martin for example. In the 50s and 60s their racers were painted a gorgeous light metallic misty green. Their current racers look great and people say they love the traditional Aston Martin colour they are painted in, but I reckon it is several shades darker than the Astons of old.

I can't say for sure with Alan Fraser's choice of blue but it wouldn't surprise me if one car was a different shade to the another. Smaller race teams would not have had sleepless night agonising over the colour. Likewise if the local paint factor had a good deal on a batch of paint, well, you get my point.

At the end of the day, all you can do is make an educated guess.

A glance at the interior of Jim's car shows all manner of modern equipment (steering wheel, seat, fire extinguisher, etc) so it is clearly not a 100% faithful replica - that is not adverse criticism, my point is that the car is built to race (hence the modern equipment) and when doing so it will perfectly conjure up evocative memories of the Fraser Imps of the 60s. That is the important thing, not whether the blue is absolutely spot on, or the shade of red for the seats, come to that! :wink:
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Post by Rod » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:29 pm

Hi Grahame,
Interesting that you should mention Astons. (This is getting right off Imps!). A few years ago there was a display at the Goodwood Festival of every surviving ex-works Aston that could be got together. They were all different colours! Even cars that would have been built together and raced together had changed subtly over the years. At a Donington race meeting I met a chap who owns the 1928 Le Mans winning Bentley and replicas of its two team mates when it had raced there the year before. They were all painted an attractive mid-green colour. He insisted, and I am sure he was right, that this was the correct colour, yet everyone expects these cars to be a dark BRG. When the Macau based model manufacturer IXO started producing models of the pre-war Le Mans Bentleys in far too dark a colour I pointed this out to them. Their reply was "we know what colour they should be, but Bentley Motors insisted we make them in the colour they are."
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Post by Grahame59 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:52 pm

Rod wrote:...yet everyone expects these cars to be a dark BRG.
Ah, but what colour is BRG?!

The first car to be painted BRG was the Gordon Bennett of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang era, but that was a very different colour to what we now think of as BRG. I think the GB is at Beaulieu (though if it has been repainted - which it probably has - how accurate was the repaint?) It was a much lighter green, almost apple green (but then, what shade is apple green?). Nowadays we think of BRG as the colour the Le Mans Jaguar D-Types were painted, which is pretty close to Rootes Forest Green. Most of the time all that mattered was that British race cars were dark green, German ones were silver, Italian red, French blue and so on. As has been said already in this thread, the cars were not historic when they were new! They were just racing cars and painting them different colours had a practical reason - that all changed of course with advertising on cars.

Interesting you talk of models, Rod. One of my hobbies is making model aircraft (both radio control and also static types - what most people would call Airfix models). I'm sure you know that to look 'scale' a colour sometimes needs to be a tad lighter than it would have been on the full-size. Paint a 1/72 scale Fleet Air Arm F4 Phantom in true Extra Dark Sea Grey and it would look much too dark, almost black. A touch of white added makes all the difference.

Arguments rage in the aviation press about what colours are 'correct'. People claim to have chips of paint, and of course museums are full of fabric samples cut from WW1 aircraft. But people forget that paint fades over time. For example, no one can truly say what colour Royal Flying Corps PC10 khaki was. People who flew the machines when they were new can now sadly be counted on the fingers of one hand. All remaining samples have faded and, even in 1918, the colour was mixed by a number of manufacturers so varied considerably. Some RFC machines were described as brown, others green. And when an aircraft's life expectancy was measured in days or weeks why should a manufacturer worry about the paint shade? Later, FS colours were meant to be reproducable but locally mixed colours still varied enormously.

OK, getting off subject a little but the point is that there are many factors that determine accuracy: memory, deterioration of the eye over time, paint fade (red is notoriously bad), paint variation when new, availability, etc. And who says the camera never lies? Photographs are perhaps the guiltiest of all for variation of colour.

Quite simply, as long as a Fraser replica is dark blue over white with a big white X on top and looks close to what most people *think* is correct, it *will* be correct!
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Post by Rod » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:44 pm

This could run & run. Those Bentleys at Donington were painted the nearest they could get to the original colour which was Parsons "Napier Green", which was presumably the colour of that Gordon-Bennett Napier.
Back in the summer of '69 (sounds like a Springsteen intro) I decided to respray my car and I decided on BMC British Racing Green. I bought some tins from the local motor accessory shop (cellulose then of course) and was rather disappointed when I opened them to find they were rather lighter than expected. Nevertheless I went ahead, realised that I needed another to finish, ordered one up only to find that it was the colour I had originally expected. Back at the shop they called their suppliers and were told that there were over 20 different variations on BMC BRG. I bought some more tins of the darker colour and did the job all over again

Changing the subject that Frazer Imp looks spectacular, wish I had the ability to build something to that standard or the money & patience to pay someone else.
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Post by Grahame59 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:56 pm

Rod wrote:Changing the subject that Frazer Imp looks spectacular.
It sure does.

At the risk of taking the thread off at another tangent, it's almost too good to race!
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Post by apeximp » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:11 pm

as many have comented i am "trying" my best to make the car look as close as it can to what they did in 65/66.

i have to have the modern safty equipment in able to race !

red door cards and passenger seat are all original just re-made and in the same colour red as was new.

cant do much about the driver seat !!

its getting there !!

mmmmm hope santa brings me a engine ............
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Post by hillmanimp_uk » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:17 pm

Grahame59 wrote: Take Aston Martin for example. In the 50s and 60s their racers were painted a gorgeous light metallic misty green. Their current racers look great and people say they love the traditional Aston Martin colour they are painted in, but I reckon it is several shades darker than the Astons of old
Hi graham,if you are refering to the 'project cars' dp214 and dp215 then you are correct ,the modern race cars are much darker,i guess its a cynical promotional ploy saying that they are green like the race cars of old.The current DBRS9 is painted in aston martin racing green but unfortunatly i cannot find a paint code for the paler green project cars. interestingly one of these surviving cars (0195r) was declared a fake not so long ago.
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Post by bazzateer » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:06 pm

IMHO the nearest 'modern' colour to 'proper' BRG is the Lotus Carlton (GM IMPerial Green) :wink:
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Post by ImpManiac » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:07 pm

apeximp,

Your Fraser Imp replica looks STUNNING! 8) 8) As has been said, it is a credit to you and to those involved in its preparation - Ron et al.

IM 8)
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Post by apeximp » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:18 pm

Its getting there. Shell / car should be finished early jan 08 and then transported to transimp in hemel hempstead to have new 998 instaled and a shake down off all the systems prior to running in and some track day testing / fun ! Only thing i am a bit worried about is hole in front panel for smart roadster rad and fan assy ! Even though adrian oliver has / had a hole in his car i dont think the powers that be will look apon it kindley !
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Post by Rod » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:16 pm

We're getting away from that stunning Fraser Imp again but someone mentioned my favourite motor racing topic, "GT racing in the 1960's" so here we go. There are two (maybe more) dubious "Project" Astons around. Firstly one of the DP214 cars was written off in a fatal accident to Brian Hetreed at the Nurburgring in 1964. This car "appeared" at an auction in 1995 claiming to be genuine but adverse comments forced its withdrawal. Mike Salmon who raced the other car at the time stated that he had personally removed any useful spares fron Hetreed's car and then cut the remains up and disposed of them. Secondly the current owner of one of the (genuine) project cars has decided that it is too valuable to race so he has had a "replica" built which is apparently acceptable under current historic regulations.
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Post by apeximp » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:03 pm

this is a link for Hillman fFraser imps not bl***y astons or bentleys !!!!!!!
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Post by hillmanimp_uk » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:05 pm

apeximp wrote:this is a link for Hillman fFraser imps not bl***y astons or bentleys !!!!!!!

chill man :shock:
its not as if its totally unrelated is it? after all the topic was on the subject on the authentitcity of colours.

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