Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Information / Questions and Discussion -
Imps and Imp based Motorsport stuff from the olden days and current

Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby alan c ramsay » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:24 pm

A real blast from the past....the Classic Sports Car Club are running a championship for Special Saloons and Modsports,
sponsored by none other than Wendy Wools !

https://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/ ... -modsports

I'd imagine Imps will be looking at Class E, up to 1040cc. Pretty big, long circuits mind.....
Slainte, Alan
User avatar
alan c ramsay
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:33 pm
Location: Irvine, Ayrshire, Scotland
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Sunbeam Sport, Hillman x3, Clan, Chrade spaceframe

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Teddie2003 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:35 am

RE CSCC Special Saloons & Modsports

Not sure if any Imp powered cars were out at all in 2017 there were none at the Thruxton event and 2016 wasn't much better. While in 2012 to 2015 there were a few at odd times.

The series contact, Ricky Parker-Morris, can't understand why the Imp type cars are not out as in the 70's and 80's they were one of the dominant cars in the series, along with the Imp powered Davrian's Ginetta's and Clans in the Modsports series of the day.

Myself and Colin Rooney spent many months of emails and meeting with CSCC people at circuits in 2016 to try get the BMW K100 engine approved as an alternative option to the Imp engine for possible use starting in 2017. We sent them many articles about the conversion kits and engine specs to back things up.

As 1: it's a period correct engine timeline wise based upon the published regs. 2: in standard form it's almost the same power rating as a good racing Imp engine, practically the same cc and would be less stressed and possibly more reliable 3: if we had to use it with a Imp transaxle that would mean you couldn't over develop it as you'd just start breaking transaxles instead of engines and 4: its' a damm site cheaper than an Imp race engine these days.

We thought at one point there was a fighting chance they could see where we were coming from with this approach and some of the CSCC committee and people in the paddock we spoke to were seemingly on side at certain points of the discussion.

Ricky put this out to the CSCC members in June 2016.
"Both Colin Rooney and Steve Mundy have approached myself and the CSCC with regards to the possible use of the BMW K100 motorcycle engine in either the 8V or 16V version, as an economic replacement for the ever expensive and now rare original Imp configuration.

Our current rules DO NOT allow any motorcycle engines, UNLESS the actual car in question was actually built with a motorcycle engine in 'period.’

However…
I have discussed this with the powers that be, at the CSCC, and so far they are willing to listen to your views on the subject.

I understand the values of using this engine, and that it will not really be far more powerful than an Imp engine, yet more available and easier to replace.
I also take into consideration that its availability on the production line fits into our period requirements as per all other engine stipulations, Pre-1994.
I have also been informed that this engine has been allowed for use in hillclimbs and sprints etc by the MSA, so if anyone can throw anymore light on that subject and confirm that this is the case, I will be happy to take information on the subject.

What we really want now, is the reaction from your community, and an evaluation of who may actually take us up on the offer of allowance should it be offered.

There are a lot of Imps out there, and they really are one of the icons when we use the words ‘Special Saloons’, yet their appearance and attendance has crashed over the last two years, so if this is what’s required to bring them back out, then lets work together to find a solution, maybe this is the solution, so lets get chatting!!"

This was part of a reply to the above that Ricky sent back to us in the summer of 2016
"Just to let you know, I am receiving a majority of feedback that suggests that this allowance would alienate ‘true’ all-Imp combinations and be harmful to their enthusiasm. Now this is interesting, as at present we don’t have ANY Imps amongst the grid, so we are already in a NO WIN situation.

I just want to know why Imp owners are happy to sit at home and look at their cars in the garage, when pound for pound, there are more Imp derivatives than any other car.

If this was allowed, and I still can’t say it will, how many cars will we actually see on the back of it?

Will keep on the argument for you and speak soon Stephen.
And yes, lets chat at Thruxton…"

Then in late autumn that year we were told it was a no from the CSCC committee, as people had objected along the above ‘true’ all-Imp combinations lines.

So as you can see, we tried for an alternative arrangement to try to keep some cars in Class E and encourage others. But the NIMBY's seemed frightened that the bike engine would be tuned to 200BHP and then would upset some of the others. Even when we'd explained that wasn't really possible with the K100 and all we were after was a similar power output to an Imp engine as otherwise instead of breaking engines we'd just be breaking transaxles!

Very strange, as in the special saloons you can run a Morris Minor with a big Chevy engine, a Midget with a crazy powered K series engine, a Darrian with a giant Rover V8, a Capri with a Mustang engine, a G15 with a Honda CRX engine and countless cars with tuned turbocharged and N/A Cossie's in them. It's all a bit "Pete Tong" with some of the engine combinations that are deemed in period(pre 94) for some of the cars though
.
if you were to fit an alternative "period" car engine in to the special saloon imp or the modsport cars that would be fine with the CSCC, but chances are that would then move you out of class E.

But they were obviously worried about anybody using an almost equivalent spec BMW bike engine in an Imp spaceframe or Davrian/Clan/Ginetta!


Steve
Sorry about the length of this reply
Teddie2003
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Gosport, Hants
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader & Davrian Mk6

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby benwick3 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:55 pm

Could be worth you speaking direct to the CSCC again as I spoke to Hugo earlier this year about competing in my Clan with a BMW engine and he was only concerned about the year of the ECU. I was talking about the K1100 and that was just within the cutoff date of I believe 1991 so the K100 should be OK.

Pete Richards
Repair. Rebuild. Repeat.
User avatar
benwick3
 
Posts: 1562
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:18 pm
Location: Benwick, March
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Race Clan Crusader x 2

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Teddie2003 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 pm

HI Pete,
was that for the Special Saloon/Modsports series or the Open Series?

As David from the CSCC, who was dealing with it then had said it was OK to run the car in the Open series with any type of engine, but then for 2017 they decided to remove the up to 1400cc class A in that series and made it up to 1600cc!

This was the "official" reply we had after about 5 months of emails and discussions.

Sent: 10 October 2016 11:11
To: 'colin rooney'; 'Stephen Mundy'
Cc: 'Ricky Parker-Morris'
Subject: RE: BMW engine

Hi Colin,

My apologies for the delay in replying, I was away on holiday, had a brilliant time and then caught a virus on my return which has taken me a week before I feel well enough to get back to work today.

The BMW engine/Imp issue is a difficult one, Ricky asked the right questions of the members and we discussed the problem in the office too, the end result is a polite no in order to try to preserve some balance of encouraging originality. Efforts will be made to encourage those Imp drivers not currently racing to bring their cars out next season. Sorry the answer isn't the one you'd hoped for but a decision has been made for now, let's see what happens next season, it can always be reviewed again.

Best regards, David"

So on that basis, it was pretty much a no brainer and they haven't been in touch at all about reviewing anything even though they no entries at for last season in Class E!

Steve
Email sent to you as well
Teddie2003
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Gosport, Hants
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader & Davrian Mk6

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby benwick3 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:27 pm

Steve,

That was for the Special Saloon/Modsports Series. I detected a softening of the attitude due to the specifications of the 'New' cars that appeared this year being in my opinion modern interpretations of the original regulations but using combinations of chassis and engine that did not appear in period.

Could be worth using these new interpretations as a basis for BMW powered Imps.

Pete Richards
Repair. Rebuild. Repeat.
User avatar
benwick3
 
Posts: 1562
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:18 pm
Location: Benwick, March
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Race Clan Crusader x 2

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Teddie2003 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:43 pm

Hi Pete,

yes I know what you mean about some of the modern interpretations of the new seasons cars.

I'll drop an email to them just to see if anything has changed regarding the BMW.

Steve
Teddie2003
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Gosport, Hants
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader & Davrian Mk6

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby TTK 25L » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:23 pm

As one of the people consulted by the CSCC having raced a space frame Imp with them for a few years I thought I would give my reasoning why I voted not to allow the BMW K engine in an Imp.

The CSCC Special Saloon Series is just that, a series of individual meetings not a championship and was meant to be a celebration of all things special saloon from pre 1992 (I think). It was like a slightly more serious track day rather than proper ‘real’ racing. Plenty of classes were/are available to cater for most cars around to get out there and have some fun. As usual, some people started to take it very seriously in an attempt to win a small plastic trophy with very little value. The enfaces for the series was on having fun but having raced in my class (up to 1040cc) using a totally legal car against some other Imps entered in my class which were running engines bigger that 1040cc for whatever reason, it really took the fun out of it for me. Anyway, this showed me that if people would not stick to the actual rules they would be extremely unlikely to stick to any ‘gentleman’s agreement’ of, for example using a standard spec BMW engine rather than a tuned one so the idea that you could use a standard BMW engine as an equivalent to a race Imp engine would never work. Someone would always tune it to gain an advantage.

On to the potential power of these 16 valve BMW engines, I know for a fact that the 16 valve heads are used on some highly competitive hillclimb Minis and on a 1380cc block are exceeding 180bhp with a likelihood that 190 to 200bhp will be achieved, however the costs doing this are eye watering compared to a full race Imp engine. The difference in CCs between the Minis and BMW engine is irrelevant as the BMW engine will turn more rpm to achieve the same power despite being smaller displacement, my old full race ZZR1200 was knocking on 200bhp revving to 10500rpm or so and I would realistically expect the BMW to be not too far off with proper development. Then of course someone will enlarge the capacity of the BMW and the whole cycle continues.

Although not my intention to, I realize that this will probably annoy some of the Imp fraternity but there seem to be a lot of internet warriors with no real intention to race because there will always be another rule that needs to be sorted before they hit the track. If you really want to go racing you will and if all you want to do is pontificate you will do that too. Motor racing is expensive no matter what you do; I have had an outright podium in the GTs (in my Radical) at Combe with a £50 engine, the entry cost, fuel, travel there and back still made the single race cost over £500. I have also had an outright podium at Combe with an £8000 engine. They were both satisfying in their own way but for different reasons. They were both achieved when I was racing very regularly with a lot of time in the seat and that is what everyone seems to forget about, cost of testing, tyres rather than just engine cost.

If anyone is genuinely serious about racing in the CSCC series they would be better off actually getting a car out there on the grid even with an Imp engine installed and once you have demonstrated to the organizers that you are serious and that you will support their series then you would have a better chance of getting the regulations changed. There are some bl***y slow cars that enter those races sometimes so a light Imp with even a fairly modest Imp engine may not be last.

Martin
User avatar
TTK 25L
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:42 pm
Location: Weymouth

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby colin rooney » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:29 pm

I have read all you wrote Martin and yes your right about people who just sit on there computer moaning , but when you race along with these bigger car and alot of them steel and your in a spaceframed imp getting lapped and paying the same entry fee to do 13laps instead of a full 15 lap race it just seems a waste of time ,, back in the days the imp was still quiet competitive but with all the power these new cars are putting out a 1000cc imp is lost

col
User avatar
colin rooney
 
Posts: 1478
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:14 pm
Location: epsom
Club Member: Yes

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Turboimp » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:58 pm

Not that I know anything about the rules , but could not the BMW engine be put forward as a car type engine rather than a " Motorbike" engine ? As that is what it is, It bears no resemblance at all to a typical "Motorbike engine" It has a block which looks very similar to an Imp engine and the bore sizes are very similar , It has a car type flywheel and clutch and fits to an Imp transaxle , the weight is the same (75 kg ) and It fits in any Imp variant , the external dimensions do not interfere with the body or chassis .
Maybe restrict them to Standard K100 987 cc size, 8 valve with carburettors. Max power is between 8400 and 7500 rpm depending on 987 ( 90 bhp - 8v 100 bhp - 16 v ) or 1100 ( 16v - 100 bhp ) size , so in fact LOWER than Imp Race units Having an example to show the organisers might help, as it looks rather like a peugeot car engine on it's side .... They would probably get beaten by the better Imp powered cars anyway !

I can't understand how Austin A30's go so fast , The last one I drove could barely make 60 mph . 1380cc engines in them is not fair ... Imp009
Attachments
s-l16001.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
1967 Imp Sport turbo 328000 Imp Miles , in the same car
1972 Clan Crusader 232000 clan Miles in the same car
must be some kind of record !
User avatar
Turboimp
 
Posts: 1401
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:55 pm
Location: South Wales & The West
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Sunbeam Imp Sport Turbocharged in 1983 + Clan

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby colin rooney » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:59 am

We have been there with that told them it was made for a car originally but no to others its a bike engine

col
User avatar
colin rooney
 
Posts: 1478
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:14 pm
Location: epsom
Club Member: Yes

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby knocker » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:19 pm

Run the car with The Classic Touring Car Club a more friendly club It’s not all about the CSCC with 500bhp
We had a meeting last year at Lydden with them and they have welcomed anything to return this year, so if you have 1200cc or a 875cc your all welcome.
Robert Knox
3 Imps
3 Ginetta's
User avatar
knocker
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:06 pm
Location: Whitstable Kent
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Maguire Stiletto Ginetta G15

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Teddie2003 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:02 pm

colin rooney wrote:We have been there with that told them it was made for a car originally but no to others its a bike engine

col


Hi Martin and Turboimp,

yes, as Colin says, we told them (CSCC) that the BMW K100 is derived from a Peugeot 104 car engine. As opposed to most bike engine cars that use engines that are originally made for bikes and then transplanted into cars, it was a bit of a tenuous link but thought it was worth telling them that.

We also told them that in the eyes and regulations of the MSA it was legal to use as an alternative engine for sprints and hill climbs in the "road going" classes within specialist production. 11.5.2 in the “blue Book” hill climb and sprints section.

Having emailed and spoken to quite a few of the people who used the BM conversion in Imps/Clan's and Ginetta G15's. I was interested in running what is basically a lightly stressed standard spec K100 engine, compared to a full race Imp, that would hopefully be reliable and finish many races without a lot of problems as an alternative engine type in my lightweight Clan Crusader.

My Luff Clan was originally made with the Johnny Blades type larger wheel arches, lightweight bonnet, doors etc., I’d change my 1-gallon hill climb fuel tank, sort out some alternative brakes, fit the fire extinguisher and then run the car in Modsport spec in the same class as the special saloons, as the series is for Pre-94 spec Special Saloons and Modsport cars. One of the main reasons for using the BMW/Transaxle conversion is my Hartwell engine could really do with a re-build/re-fresh, which could possibly cost a fair bit more than the BMW/Transaxle conversion.

As the K100 would be used with an Imp based transaxle that would mean that even if was possible to really tune up the 987cc engine, the Imp transaxle would limit how much power we could put though it before it breaks the casing, my existing JK transaxle gearing could be used as the K100 runs at similar RPM especially with 8 or 9” wide 13” dia slick tyres fitted.

We had been quite open with the CSCC about the BMW engine’s potential and if they had approved and specified the K100 engine preferably in 16V, but if need be 8v we were more than happy for them to “police” what we ran so that everything was above board.

The other thing that we thought would also help was that we wanted the K100 engine only to be used with an Imp transaxle, as opposed to the CSCC rules which are "free" meaning we could run a stronger Hewland set up. Neither of us wanted the hassle of fitting a Hewland, as that means cutting the rear bulkhead about and then also possibly not using the complete Imp suspension cross member mount.

The “whole idea” was to get out with a reasonable engine spec that didn’t cost the earth and then as Martin says have some “fun” at a reasonable cost in the short series of usually four or five meetings they run each season. And Martin, over the years I’ve always known that Motor Racing is Dangerous (to the wallet), but this was a way of possibly lessoning that danger.

I also know all about the potential of the BMW 16V head on a Mini 1380 hill climb engine as that's what Tony and Ben Bonfield run on the SW hills, I’ve known Tony for years and used to compete against him in the ASWMC events and his car has tremendous power, but as you say costs a fortune.

But for me and I’m pretty sure Colin would agree, this was never about building some kind of stupid horsepower big bore engine disguised as a sub-1040cc for a Clan or Imp. Neither was being lapped a big worry, when I ran a 915cc single Solex, 60 ish BHP, all steel panelled Imp in Historic races with Ford Falcon’s, Mustangs, Lotus Cortina’s etc in the race, there wasn’t much chance of not getting lapped! But it was a reliable inexpensive engine that made the races “fun” for a non-internet warrior, as that was what all the Imps were running in that series at that time.

I just asked (the CSCC) if it was possible for them to consider the use of an engine with some kind of parity with a good Imp engine and would have been happy for anybody to inspect it before it was built and check it whenever they wanted. But, hey ho, it seems that wasn’t going to believed by some of the “full fat” traditional Imp parties which was a bit of shame, but not the end of the world.

Steve
Last edited by Teddie2003 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:51 am, edited 8 times in total.
Teddie2003
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Gosport, Hants
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader & Davrian Mk6

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Teddie2003 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:05 pm

knocker wrote:Run the car with The Classic Touring Car Club a more friendly club It’s not all about the CSCC with 500bhp
We had a meeting last year at Lydden with them and they have welcomed anything to return this year, so if you have 1200cc or a 875cc your all welcome.


Hi Rob,

so is that just races at Lydden or are you doing any races with them at other tracks as well?

Steve
Teddie2003
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Gosport, Hants
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader & Davrian Mk6

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby knocker » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:34 am

Steve, have a look at their website Mallory, Croft, Brands all well suited tracks for an IMP.
Robert Knox
3 Imps
3 Ginetta's
User avatar
knocker
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:06 pm
Location: Whitstable Kent
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Maguire Stiletto Ginetta G15

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby Teddie2003 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:50 am

knocker wrote:Steve, have a look at their website Mallory, Croft, Brands all well suited tracks for an IMP.


OK Rob,

I'll have a look to see what it's all about.

Steve
Teddie2003
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Gosport, Hants
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader & Davrian Mk6

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby colin rooney » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:53 pm

knocker wrote:Run the car with The Classic Touring Car Club a more friendly club It’s not all about the CSCC with 500bhp
We had a meeting last year at Lydden with them and they have welcomed anything to return this year, so if you have 1200cc or a 875cc your all welcome.



Yes thats where im going to run my imp in 2018

col
User avatar
colin rooney
 
Posts: 1478
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:14 pm
Location: epsom
Club Member: Yes

Re: Wendy Wools Special Saloons & Modsports series 2018

Postby knocker » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:56 pm

It’s never going to win a race against the big boys on their 25k a season budget we need to get back to the old days guys building cars in their garage on a shoestring budget if & went you can afford to run it get out enjoy yourself with a good bunch of enthusiastic people I’m sure the CTCC won’t turn you away whatever engine is fitting.
Robert Knox
3 Imps
3 Ginetta's
User avatar
knocker
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:06 pm
Location: Whitstable Kent
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Maguire Stiletto Ginetta G15


Return to Motorsport Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests