Clan Roll Cage

Information / Questions and Discussion -
Imps and Imp based Motorsport stuff from the olden days and current
User avatar
benwick3
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:18 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Race Clan Crusader x 2
Location: Benwick, March

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:20 pm

Scott,

I think you're looking for problems that are not there. It clearly states that the upper portion can bend to follow the windscreen which is what the RollCentre cage does. No problem with interpretation in my view as the lower section is vertical. The picture in the clarification article has two bends in the upper section below the top junction of the side and front bars and I would surmise a further one to result in the lower section, below the dash, being vertical.

Pete Richards
Repair. Rebuild. Repeat.
bks974c
Posts: 2677
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:26 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: all the above
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:33 pm

My Last word on this subject and then I will say no more.

What I think they are saying is splayed legs are OK however bandy legs are not.

Scott
User avatar
brakedisc
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:19 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader, Sunbeam Imp Sport

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by brakedisc » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:26 pm

I have wasted 18 months on this and now we are back to where we started.
User avatar
Mike Hanna
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:44 pm
Club Member: No
Car Model: 2 ZIMPS, 2 SINGER CHAMOIS, 6 HILLMAN IMPS
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Mike Hanna » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:50 am

Hi Tim. (Swimpster.) I have just seen your photos of the Clan roll cage you are building. Looks good, but you should take the opportunity to make the centre hoop foot plate go up the vertical xmember face so that the cage stiffens the xmember mount and the cage leg will then be bolted to a steel member. Just a suggestion as I know the xmembers can pull out of the body. Cheers. Mike
The Nun
Posts: 7520
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:02 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Imp x 2
Location: South

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by The Nun » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:19 am

brakedisc wrote:Pete,

the straight leg is legal, the bent leg is not. Be prepared for worse to come.
Almost enough to put one off motorsport for good, glad Im out of it, maybe they are trying to close it all down, like elf and safety has done to the British Industry, then we can stay in bed all day.
Peter Nunn...ey im member 00033
The Nun
Posts: 7520
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:02 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Imp x 2
Location: South

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by The Nun » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:24 am

bks974c wrote:My Last word on this subject and then I will say no more.

What I think they are saying is splayed legs are OK however bandy legs are not.

Scott
I can see that a bend can be a weak and possible failure point, but you could gusset or brace the bend and restore its strength equal to that of a non bent section without too much trouble Im sure, if youre unfortunate enough to have the wrong cage that is, but then I dont expect the scrutineers are structural engineers so it would still be no good to them. :roll:
Peter Nunn...ey im member 00033
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:09 pm

Hi Mike

Thanks for your suggestion, I'm sorry I'm being a little thick and I can't viusalise what you mean. Is there any chance that you could sketch it for me please? The cage is not fully fitted yet, so I'm still pretty flexible and open to any suggestions.

I've lowered the door bars by about 70mm, so getting in and out should be easier now.

P.S. Mike, I have called you this week, (well I hope it was yours I rang) and left a message. Do you still make that lovely looking baffled sump? I'm interested in buying one off you, if you do? If you would let me know, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers

Tim
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:53 pm

Ah Mike

I see what you mean, I think, make a plate so that it can bolt through to the rear cross member. Will that creat a problem with regs though? I though you could not connect roll cages to suspension members? If it's ok to do it, then I will.

Cheers

Tim
bks974c
Posts: 2677
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:26 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: all the above
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:23 pm

Hi Tim

You'll be bolting to the crossmember not a suspension component, you'll be OK

Scott
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:54 pm

Hi Scott

In that case, I'll be cutting the plates tomorrow......... :P

Cheers

Tim
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:24 pm

Hi All
Made the strengthening plates for the passenger side, will now do them for the driver's side. I'll bond them in then it's back to fitting the roll cage and bolting the feet through these sections. Should stiffen things up a bit.
Cheers

Tim
Attachments
Clan26022011 002.JPG
Strengthening Plates
Impecunious
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:32 am
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader Singer Chamois Sport Audi A4 Quattro

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:44 am

Wow.....errrr......hmmm.

Interesting concoction :?

Dave W.
User avatar
apeximp
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:57 am
Club Member: No
Car Model: .
Location: wheatley oxford

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by apeximp » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:38 am

1St sorry to post here , Dave W. Can you pm me please ??? Have done so without no joy ! Need to chat about gearbox you built up for me.
Jim McKenzie
Impecunious
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:32 am
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader Singer Chamois Sport Audi A4 Quattro

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:54 am

pm's are not working Jim.

Cheers,

Dave.
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:29 pm

You don't think they'll catch on then Dave?????? :wink:
User avatar
SimonBenoy
Posts: 947
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:27 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: 68 Stiletto, 72 G15, 67 race Imp, 3 projects
Location: Stevenage, Herts

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by SimonBenoy » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:45 pm

PMs are working fine - you just don't get an email to tell you that you have one. Check your in boxes folks!
Impecunious
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:32 am
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader Singer Chamois Sport Audi A4 Quattro

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Just great. Found out how to check inbox to find a dozen unanswered pm's in there. :evil:

Why no more email notifications?

Dave W.
User avatar
SimonBenoy
Posts: 947
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:27 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: 68 Stiletto, 72 G15, 67 race Imp, 3 projects
Location: Stevenage, Herts

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by SimonBenoy » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:01 pm

When we work that out, we'll fix it!
bks974c
Posts: 2677
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:26 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: all the above
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:47 pm

For information only

Motor Sports Council decisions

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/news ... 1_0311.pdf

At last clearly defined rules for front roll cages that are possible to understand but unfortunately contradict last months news letter and make the majority of clan front cages now illegal. :(

Now ducks for the flack to come.

Scott
User avatar
Lotus-e-Clan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:08 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: 75Clan 1040BVSSH GB72 mapped ign DHLAs -Waterless!
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:58 pm

c
Last edited by Lotus-e-Clan on Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
74 Clan Crusader 1040 Red 190 bhp/ton
bks974c
Posts: 2677
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:26 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: all the above
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:19 pm

Hi Peter

Not sure about the GRP cages -there are FIA papers for them but safety items are generally updated in line with current recommendations, will depend on the general regs of the event you are doing. Pete Richards will have more knowledge on them.

Scott
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:08 pm

Hi Scott

Now, which side are we looking from? :wink:
User avatar
benwick3
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:18 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Race Clan Crusader x 2
Location: Benwick, March

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:50 am

How to make things complicated - Call in the MSA

I've given up with trying to sort this out and consequently will be fitting the front Rollcentre cage to my original Clan for this season. This car, being a works competition shell, RR003, ay has the inbuilt fibreglass cage for which I have a copy of the original RAC Safety Roll Bar Certificate. I think therefore, with two complete cages, I should have adequate rollover protection.

I don't envisage any problems but should there be an query about the front section then I'll just remove it as the type of car only requires a rear cage, due to engine size, to comply with the minimum requirement for Production, Touring and Sports Cars.

Pete Richards
Repair. Rebuild. Repeat.
User avatar
brakedisc
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:19 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Clan Crusader, Sunbeam Imp Sport

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by brakedisc » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:03 pm

Indeed and just when you thought it was safe there is a clarification in the latest MSA newsletter that changes things again.

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/news ... 1_0311.pdf

I am at the fitting of seats mounts stage with my build and I was told a Cobra Imola 2 fits but how ? The dimensions are too big according to the brochure. The only seat that appears narrow enough is the Cobra Racer Pro. Anyone any experience of this seat. FIA homologated and suitable for Elise size vehicles. Not cheap and I need 4 of them.
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:45 pm

It will be interesting to see just how many different interpretations of this will be on the tracks this year. All legal, of course.........................Well, depending on who's passing it of course. I'm going to put an exoskeleton around mine!!!!!!
bks974c
Posts: 2677
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:26 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: all the above
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:56 pm

For me apart from the rule change this is the key part

This change takes immediate effect and competitors are advised to ensure that all vehicles are fully compliant with the new regulations before any future event. Should further advice be required, competitors are encouraged to speak to the MSA Technical Department or an MSA-registered Scrutineer.

I guess the MSA will be asking the scrutineers to follow up on this. It is relatively easy to make the cage compliant but not sure how it will effect getting in and out and how does it change how you mount the door bars.

Scott
User avatar
onomatopoeia
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:30 am
Club Member: No
Car Model: Singer Chamois, Davrian Mk7a, Clan Crusader
Location: Bristol-ish

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by onomatopoeia » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:16 pm

bks974c wrote:Hi Peter

Not sure about the GRP cages -there are FIA papers for them but safety items are generally updated in line with current recommendations, will depend on the general regs of the event you are doing. Pete Richards will have more knowledge on them.

Scott
The General Regulations are the blue book, the event issues supplementary regulations. Event SRs cannot waive the safety requirements in the general regulations.

I'm concerned about the 90 degree bend at the bottom of the rollcentre cages where the front leg turns towards the middle of the car, to run under the occupants legs. Although the "one bend" rule has been in the book since at least 1998 as I checked that one today, so it's hardly anything new.
Meltdown
Posts: 1930
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:01 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Singer Chamois
Location: Some would say I'm not all there...

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Meltdown » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:31 pm

The way I've just read the update is that you can have as many bends as you like so long as a 'reinforcement bar' is fitted which in itself can have one bend not more than 20deg in it. However, you need the contortinal ability of Debbie McGee to get in and especially out within the required 5 seconds :lol:
Do me a deal? Employ me for 3 days and pay me for what I'm currently being paid for 5, then I'll have time to do everything!
65 Chamois
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 pm

Exactly! I can't tell you how many cutting discs I've got through in the last month and it looks as though I'll be getting through some more in the morning, as I cut off my door bar brackets to lower them even more to fit the new optional supports!!!!! I don't suppose anybody considered about getting in and out!!!!!!! Oh, but they did, that's on an earlier reg, I'm struggling with which one to conform to. Good eh???
Meltdown
Posts: 1930
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:01 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Singer Chamois
Location: Some would say I'm not all there...

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Meltdown » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:40 pm

Here's the answer: Sell the Clan and buy a Ferrari 250GTO...then you'll be miraculously exempt from needing a roll cage :lol:
Do me a deal? Employ me for 3 days and pay me for what I'm currently being paid for 5, then I'll have time to do everything!
65 Chamois
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Hmmm! Sounds like a plan!!! Either that or just take up extreme gardening for a hobby!!! :roll:
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:49 pm

Here's roll cage MKIX, or something. Put the backstays to the other side of the suspension mounting, lowered door bars and finished Challenger Tank cross member internal reinforcements. The only thing that's going to flex in this baby are the rear springs!!!!
Oh!!! Waiting to hear from MSA Technical to see if they'll let me off the new windscreen pillar support..........Fingers crossed.
Attachments
Clan15.03.2011 008 - Copy.JPG
Clan15.03.2011 007.JPG
Clan15.03.2011 006 - Copy.JPG
Clan15.03.2011 001 - Copy.JPG
User avatar
Mike Hanna
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:44 pm
Club Member: No
Car Model: 2 ZIMPS, 2 SINGER CHAMOIS, 6 HILLMAN IMPS
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Mike Hanna » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:26 pm

Hi Tim. My understanding of the MSA wording on front legs makes your front cage illegal. Why has your front leg got a bend mid way down the windscreen pillar that does not seem to follow the pillar anyway? why can't it be straight from top to dash? You could always move the leg back slightly so it isnt in your line of sight. Cheers .Mike
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:10 am

Hi Mike. When viewed from inside, in line with the door aperture, a better impression of the bar , as it follows the windscreen pillar can be seen. The inner wheel arch is quite some way inside and I can only assume that it would be less intrusive to the line of sight than it would be if it went straight down from the roof. The cage was supplied by The Rollcentre, so it is one that has been in use for a long time. It's not fixed in yet, so I'm waiting to hear from the MSA before I do any more mods.
Cheers

Tim
User avatar
benwick3
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:18 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Race Clan Crusader x 2
Location: Benwick, March

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:16 am

The regulations for bends in rollcages have been part of the Blue book for years and to date I know of no one who has been picked on as having an illegal roll cage in a Clan, myself included. Why is everyone intent on causing problems? As I see it it is all down to interpretation and so far scrutineers in the racing scene have interpreted the cage as being legal.

Pete Richards
Repair. Rebuild. Repeat.
User avatar
Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:07 am
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Imps and Clans
Location: Proboards
Contact:

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:58 pm

This is the cause of the panic on cages

Immediate rule change for ROPS
The Motor Sports Council unanimously agreed to implement immediate changes to Regulations K1.3.1 and K1.3.5, which cover the Technical Specifications of Rollcages.
This change takes immediate effect and competitors are advised to ensure that all vehicles are fully compliant with the new regulations before any future event.

The revised regulations are as follows (red wording indicates new text; italics indicates deleted text): note original said double strike thru but no facility here for that :D

K1.3.1. Main, Front and Lateral Rollbars. These frames or hoops must be made in one piece without joints. Their construction must be smooth and even, without ripples or cracks. The vertical part of the main rollbar must be as straight as possible and as close as possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell. The front leg of the front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its lower vertical part unless a windscreen pillar reinforcement [K1.3.5(e)] is fitted.

So its one bend and follow the windscreen pillar? or could we intrepret as follow the windscreen pillar and one additional bend? or just a straight leg

Nothing like a clear regulation just grateful my Imp cage appears to follow these regs and that the Clan only has a rear cage!
Keith
Dorset ACO
User avatar
Mike Hanna
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:44 pm
Club Member: No
Car Model: 2 ZIMPS, 2 SINGER CHAMOIS, 6 HILLMAN IMPS
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Mike Hanna » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:39 pm

Hi all. Pete, I am not someone trying to cause problems in fact the opposite I am merely trying to save other competitors problems at scrutineering. I read the new rule to mean that between roof and floor there should be only one bend, otherwise you have to have a reinforcement bar. ( They don't say what to do with the door bars though!). I have competed on and off since 1975 and in my experience not all scrutineers know all the rules. Most scrutineers have their "pet" areas of safety to pick on and this being a new rule they will pick on it. I have owned a Clan in the past and see on reason for the leg to have more than one bend. Cheers. Mike
moose
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:41 am
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: rally imp
Location: forton lancashire north england

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by moose » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:57 am

and the latest news is after the rule change, exemptions are being looked at ! probably to accomodate cars like pete's clan that has the once ok built in GRP cage that was ok in its day but safety moves forward so a steel cage is better/required so maybe the clans with GRP and steel would be allowed to have the double bend but not clans without GRP cage. recently the MSA changed rules for road rallies to control some of the equipment on modern night rally cars and as the historics sometimes run on the same permits it effected historic rallying like no more than 2 chokes per bank of cylinders or no more than 4 cylinders, now the historics used to be able to get a waiver to allow lotus cortinas, sunbeams, alfas, fiats, six pot triumphs etc to run as the inlet manifolds were part of the cylinder head casting or no 4 cylinder engined cars were produced the new rule changes prevented this so it effectivley killed off half of the historic rally cars eligible to do a historic road rally, daylight road rally (used to link sections between tests) so NESCRO and other interested parties opened up discussions with the MSA and a sensible outcome was arrived at. so my advice is talk to the MSA technical and scrutineering dept they are very very helpful and want people to compete and be safe so if you explain the problem to them you may get the exemption you are looking for with a written document to use as proof that you cage is ok fo scrutineers to view at events. scrutineers are good guys looking after your safety and they do their best to get competitors out on events by offering constructive advice as how to make the car safe to compete (but they are human and any rule can be interpreted many ways by many people), i would talk to the MSA and not leave it to chance that cars have not been prevented from running in the past.
Regards Moose
Century Autosport
User avatar
Swimpster
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 pm
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Hillman Imp Super / Clan Crusader
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:31 am

Hi Mike. I'm waiting for the MSA to give me a decision and they told me that I'll get an answer today. I've sent loads of photos, so they can see the line of the roll bar. So, whatever they say, I'll comply with. Fingers crossed no more cutting and welding........
User avatar
willsrings
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:36 am
Club Member: Yes
Car Model: Sunbeam Imp Sport
Location: Cornwall

Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by willsrings » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:16 am

78 replies on and no further forward, I think you are stirring up trouble for yourselves. :(
Post Reply