Clan Roll Cage

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Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:02 pm

I'm at the stage of my race Clan build where I'm about to fit my roll cage, I bought it some time ago from the Roll Centre in Cambridge, but there are no fitting instructions available for it. It's pretty much self explainitary as to where all the bits go, but I'd just like to see some pictures of any other members' set ups before I get the angle grinder out. So if there is anybody out there with a decent set of photos for me, I 'd appreciate seeing them, to give me a few ideas etc.

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:43 pm

Hi Tim

If the car to be used in competition, before you fit check the front cage, the MSA has got very strict now in applying what I think was always the case, that the front leg must take one bend from the bottom of the screen to the floor and be as straight as possible.

A number of the Clan cages I have seen have an s bend there and this is now an absolute no no.

As to your request for pics, sorry but there are some here but will be different to yours.

http://www.makephpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... icrallycha

Scott
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:07 pm

Thanks Scott

My cage,thankfully, has no bends below the windscreen, it takes a dog leg following the windscreen frame up to the roof and then bends back to follow the roof line. Hopefully this will be ok.

Thanks for the pics, they are very useful.

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:15 pm

Scott; good link to the ex-Bob Ross Clan. It's nice to see all those positive comments on the site about the car from a personal point of view as I built it.

The car came to me as a road going Crusader and left me basically as pictured, but still in the original tobacco brown paint and with no Dymotape on the dashboard. He didn't ask me to get it repainted whilst in my hands. It took hundreds of hours and a huge amount of hard work and exasperation; that is all I am going to say on the subject. Read the whole link; it's quite, er, revealing :? .

It is a very accurate Rollcentre cage which arrived in kit form as always, requiring much cutting, shaping, welding and trial fitting (the best part of a week). It was done with the windscreen in to get the clearances right and has a floor bar fitted between the two front downtube foot plates. Just bolting the foot plates to the floor/inner arch and diaphragm is a waste of time from a safety point of view. The downtubes do have only one bend in them from the bottom of the screen to the floor so it would appear that scrutineers would be satisfied with the installation. They have a second bend above that on the way to the top of the 'A' post to get the tube out of the driver's line of sight as much as possible. Martin Short must surely have investigated the do's and don'ts before he designed the cage.

As many of you will know, the old RAC GRP rollcage certificate was issued after a full size skip was placed on the floor of an inverted Clan shell and filled with water. The widely predicted calamity failed to occur and that was good enough for the RAC. I don't think repeating the exercise with a properly fitted Rollcentre cage would give any different result 8)

Btw, the carbon laminates in the car are one layer of RC200 twill backed with glass csm in polyester resin, hand laid on glass sheet

Dave W.






f
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:18 pm

Hi Pete/Dave

Relevant Bluebook section

Technical Specifications
1.3.1. Main, Front and Lateral Rollbars. These frames
or hoops must be made in one piece without joints.
Their construction must be smooth and even, without
ripples or cracks. The vertical part of the main rollbar
must be as straight as possible and as close as
possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell. The
front leg of a front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be
straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the
windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its
lower vertical part.

This to me sounds like the Roll Centre cage is illegal with the dog leg (more than one bend). I don't know about racing but there has been incidents in rallying of scrutineers failing cars that contravene this rule despite having log books and previously been allowed to run. You loose your entry fee etc.

I would seek the advice of the scrutineer for the events you plan to enter rather than wasting time and money. While at it check what the spec of the cage tubing needs to be.

Scott
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:39 pm

As far as I know the tube for the Rollcentre cage is the correct specification. As I read it the front cage does comply with the regulation although I can see both sides of the argument. You could also argue that the Clan cage is illegal as the mounting feet cannot be fitted to the required strengthening plate welded to the bodyshell !

I have a rear section fitted in my original competition shell and will shorty be fitting a front section in order to comply with the regulations of an event I will be doing that requires door bars to be fitted. As I already have the GRP rollcage fitted I would expect the car and Rollcentre cage to safely pass the skip test!

One point worth noting is that in order to comply with the safety requirements only a rear cage is necessary for Production, Touring or Sports Cars upto 2000cc.
However, if the doors are lightened in any way then door bars are necessary and these would require the fitment of a front cage to provide support.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by brakedisc » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:59 pm

"They have a second bend above that on the way to the top of the 'A' post to get the tube out of the driver's line of sight as much as possible. Martin Short must surely have investigated the do's and don'ts before he designed the cage."


That is the problem. The new interpretation of the rules is the issue. The cage might have been ok when designed but is no longer allowed. It is retrospective as well which means that new front legs are required. The MSA are looking at all the rules regarding rollcages at the moment so I expect big changes and hope all the contradictions in the rules will be tidied up.
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:37 pm

As far as I remember the rule has not changed just the enforcement, many newer designs started to get clever and were made to fit around dashes etc this along with the extreme angles of rake and the size of windscreens resulted in cages which partially failed when used in anger. :o hence the msa has been obliged to act in this way, as always it catches some designs out that would actually do the job but did not comply with the letter of the law.

If you look at many of the WRC and touring cars they have additional tubes to support the front legs which technically are not allowed in the bluebook but they can provide stress analysis etc to prove it works.

The real nonsense is in historics where you are banned from fitting a better and safer cage :x common sense would say yes min standard but if you want to go higher on you go.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:56 pm

All fun and games isn't it? When all's said and done, the grp 'rollcaged' Clan that the RAC were perfectly happy to let go international rallying in the seventies is imvho, substantially safer today with a properly fitted Rollcentre cage.

Look forward to seeing how it all pans out.

Dave W.
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:06 am

[quote="Impecunious"]All fun and games isn't it? When all's said and done, the grp 'rollcaged' Clan that the RAC were perfectly happy to let go international rallying in the seventies is imvho, substantially safer today with a properly fitted Rollcentre cage.

Look forward to seeing how it all pans out.

Dave W.[/quote]

Dave

Not sure which way you are voting here grp rollcage or steel cage :?

Look at Formula I through the decades 50's no cages, no seat belts, leather helmets, fire ext systems etc and now they crash them and walk away -progress who needs it :wink:

Scott
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:37 am

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:59 am

Scott,

I'm pretty ambivalent about it. The grp rollcage can be easily beefed up to accept a couple of skips full of water, never mind one. The advantage of this is that it is a homogeneous material, laid up at the same time as the shell in the mould and cured with it. It takes up less space than a steel cage and, being part of the shell, is not reliant on a few localised mechanical fixings to the grp monocoque. The weight saving over a steel cage is enormous. For a steel cage to work in the majority of incident scenarios, it should ideally be a complete box with the driver and navigator inside it. A well designed and fitted steel cage in a Clan would though, in all probability, offer greater protection in a high speed accident with an immoveable object.

Composites absorb energy by progressive deformation; the laminate beyond the point at which all energy is dissipated is usually structurally sound. The ductility of steel ensures that much more deformation of the structure will occur as it dissipates the same amount of energy. More than one steel car has been written off after an argument with a Clan which has only required localised repairs to see it back on the road :D .

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:04 am

Just had a browse re Kubica accident - horrendous stuff and hope he makes a good recovery.

Quite how you avoid incident like this is difficult unless they ban all motorsport except on specially constructed venues and that not a route I'd want.
His co driver suggests they need to provide more protection - give them all tanks would work but takes the fun out of it.

The cars they use are so far removed from the vehicles they pretend to represent and so far from the reach of us mere mortals in terms of costs, perhaps a return to the old days showroom models battling it out without a team of hundreds backing them up. Naw it not likely to happen.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:21 am

[quote="Impecunious"]Scott,

I'm pretty ambivalent about it. The grp rollcage can be easily beefed up to accept a couple of skips full of water, never mind one. The advantage of this is that it is a homogeneous material, laid up at the same time as the shell in the mould and cured with it. It takes up less space than a steel cage and, being part of the shell, is not reliant on a few localised mechanical fixings to the grp monocoque. The weight saving over a steel cage is enormous. For a steel cage to work in the majority of incident scenarios, it should ideally be a complete box with the driver and navigator inside it. A well designed and fitted steel cage in a Clan would though, in all probability, offer greater protection in a high speed accident with an immoveable object.

Composites absorb energy by progressive deformation; the laminate beyond the point at which all energy is dissipated is usually structurally sound. The ductility of steel ensures that much more deformation of the structure will occur as it dissipates the same amount of energy. More than one steel car has been written off after an argument with a Clan which has only required localised repairs to see it back on the road :D .

Dave W.[/quote]

While I agree that GRP is an excellent material and has many great properties, IMHO the skip full of water does not represent the loads exerted in say a high speed multiple roll, the first impact would be taken well but with each subsequent impact the chances of major structual failure grows. Its a bit like the old trick with the egg steady load everything is fine but drop it and you have one hell of a mess.

The steel roll cage is relatively much stronger than the surrounding material and is there primarily to protect the occupants as you say. Is there any reason why you can't glass in a steel cage so that the cage becomes one with the shell and does not simply rely on 6 points of contact.

Scott
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:14 am

Dave's certainly right about the accuracy of the cage, I'm sure it was supposed to be for a Clan!!!! Managed to put in position thr rear hoop, after some cutting of course. The two longitudinal members, which go along the roof line to the front of the car, down to the footwells will be more of a challenge. With the dash/steering wheel support beam, in situ, the vertical members down to the footwell do not sit right behind the inner wheel arches. Ther are about 75mm further back. So it looks like I'll have to modify the existing steering wheel support beam mountings, if I'm to get the cage as close to the wheel arches as possible. I'll put the windscreen back in to make sure I'm not going past it with the tubes.
I'll have a word with the scrutineer as well, just to see if I'm within the regs.
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Impecunious » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:50 am

The front legs should be almost touching the inner wheel arch at the base. The dash support crossbeam passes in front of the tubes with mods. There are two holes cut in the top of the dash itself to clear the downtubes.

You could argue the point regarding roll cages till the cows come home. Ask Robert Kubica how a huge, heavy, multi-point steel cage protected him. I'm sure the RAC scrutineer who passed the Clan grp cage took inertial loads as well as static loads into account when he issued the certificate. I'm no physicist, but I wouldn't be surprised if the inertial loads on a barrel rolling Clan were one quarter of those on a car weighing twice as much.

You can laminate a cage structure into a car - I wouldn't try it with an FIA cage though as it would look ridiculous, add unnecessary weight and probably achieve very little. The best compromise (regs permitting) would be a lightweight small-section alloy tube structure laminated in to the A,B and C posts with a continuous hoop on the A and B loops, linked longitudinally.

I will own up to working on a Reliant Robin for someone once; that had the equivalent of half inch diameter tent poles laminated into it in places :lol:

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:00 am

don't early Dav's have the cage bonded in? the problem with that would be inspecting the condition of the cage.

seems to me as long as there's only one bend below the windscreen and the cage fits as close to the bodyshell as practical then the cage would pass.The rear legs on a Clan always caused the most concerns do you put them to the shock absorber towers? or to the area of the spring tops or put them narrowly between the shock absorber towers which then makes a diagonal pretty useless?

If Pete R can get his car accepted on Race Circuits then guess that's the guide
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:33 am

Agree entirely with you Keith and so have Scrutineers both here and on the Continent. I've found that because of the unique form of monocoque construction of the Clan scrutineers have to use a bit of common sense when applying the rollcage regulations. This I have found to be case. All three of the Clans I have have different cages including the original which has both the fibreglass cage and a later added rear steel cage.

As many of you will know I raced my original competition Clan for virtually 20 years with the original fibreglass cage being accepted with no problems. In fact, the regular 750 Motor Club scrutineers used to always assign trainees to check the car out and stand back whilst they looked for the cage. After leaving them for a while they would point out the inbuilt cage and show them the copy of the RAC certificate I always had with me.

I only fitted the steel rear cage to stop the mutterings about the lack of cage and weight adavantage. I had no problem with the integrety of the original construction as I tested fully a number of times .

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:31 pm

From MSA newsletter

JUDICIAL
Stephen Johnson
On 23 September 2010 an Eligibility Appeal tribunal of the National Court was convened at Countesthorpe Village Hall, Countesthorpe, Leicester to hear the Appeal of Stephen Johnson against his exclusion from starting the Richard Burns Memorial Rally on the 14th/15th August 2010.
After due consideration the National Court found that the roll cage (ROPS) fitted to the car of competitor 135, Stephen Johnson at the Richard Burns Memorial Rally at Marham on 14th/15th August 2010 clearly did not comply with K1.3.1 in as much as there was more than one bend in the lower vertical part. The National Court referred to the 2004 Blue Book, at which time the car was duly logbooked, in which Q1.2.1 clearly confirmed that only one bend on the lower vertical front leg was permitted, it was also noted that this regulation is still fully stated in the 2010 Blue Book as Regulation K1.3.1. Such bends were not permitted in an uncertified ROPS structure.
Decision: The National Court recommended to the MSA that an urgent review of the regulations applicable to ROPS structures be carried out and that the findings be published to all competitors and officials as a matter of urgency. The decision of the National Court was to return the Appeal fee to Mr Johnson. No order was made with regard to costs
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:42 pm

bks974c wrote:From MSA newsletter

JUDICIAL
Stephen Johnson
On 23 September 2010 an Eligibility Appeal tribunal of the National Court was convened at Countesthorpe Village Hall, Countesthorpe, Leicester to hear the Appeal of Stephen Johnson against his exclusion from starting the Richard Burns Memorial Rally on the 14th/15th August 2010.
After due consideration the National Court found that the roll cage (ROPS) fitted to the car of competitor 135, Stephen Johnson at the Richard Burns Memorial Rally at Marham on 14th/15th August 2010 clearly did not comply with K1.3.1 in as much as there was more than one bend in the lower vertical part. The National Court referred to the 2004 Blue Book, at which time the car was duly logbooked, in which Q1.2.1 clearly confirmed that only one bend on the lower vertical front leg was permitted, it was also noted that this regulation is still fully stated in the 2010 Blue Book as Regulation K1.3.1. Such bends were not permitted in an uncertified ROPS structure.
Decision: The National Court recommended to the MSA that an urgent review of the regulations applicable to ROPS structures be carried out and that the findings be published to all competitors and officials as a matter of urgency. The decision of the National Court was to return the Appeal fee to Mr Johnson. No order was made with regard to costs
Ok so define the 'lower vertical part ? where does it start ?
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:08 pm

I'm with you Keith. Where does the lower vertical section begin? On the Clan cage the lower vertical section as far as I'm concerned is that part that does not follow the line of the windscreen and that's below the so called dogleg which is there to follow the windscreen pillars as stated by the regulation if it is not possible to be straight and follow the interior contour of the bodyshell.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:28 pm

Hi Keith

They seem to want the vertical part to run straight to the floor, this is clearly not pratical so they say it may follow the windscreen pillars and
then run drop down straight to the floor ie one bend. If you think you can then have a bend above the bottom of the windscreen the rule that it must be straight kicks in.

Bluebook as written

The vertical part of the main rollbar
must be as straight as possible and as close as
possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell. The
front leg of a front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be
straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the
windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its
lower vertical part.

All I'm saying is that if you can't prove you comply with the letter and sometimes the intention as well be aware of the potential consequences.

I am looking at caging my Clan and fully aware of the problems finding a cage that is MSA compliant.


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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:26 pm

Scott,

I'm sorry but we will have to disagree. I base my interpretation on what I know to have been deemed acceptable by Scrutineers both here and on the Continent.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:27 pm

http://uploads.turbosport.co.uk/getremp ... gespec.gif

picture here of the basic cage diagram and also in the article a clear definition of the problem, however really don't see it as an issue on a Clan, plenty of cars I know don't have the cage foot hard against the wheel arch
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:32 pm

benwick3 wrote:Scott,

I'm sorry but we will have to disagree. I base my interpretation on what I know to have been deemed acceptable by Scrutineers both here and on the Continent.

Pete Richards
Hi Pete

I'd be more than happy to be wrong, make life a lot easier for a lot of people and I know many things have been accepted and as long as its not questioned I would carry on.

Point for clarification though, regs state the cage should be as close to the interior contours not follow the interior contours.

Hey its a forum and we have raised some valid points and its now there for others to use this information as they wish, its not about right and wrong. :D

I like playing with roll cages what can I say, not what I'd put in the Clan though

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:53 pm

Hi All
That's some cage Scott!!! I bet Corus had a good month when that lot of steel was ordered. :wink:
I'm confident that it does comply, as there is no bend below the windscreen and it's a vertical drop to the floor. The dogleg comes in, as Dave says, to follow the windscreen pillars. A straight vertical from the top of the windscreen would, I'm sure, compromise the door area, again, against regulations. The thing is with the Clan, it's a compromise, as Pete and Keith say, it's a pretty unique construction, so some improvisation must be applied.
Nice challenge though.... 8)
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by brakedisc » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:58 pm

Image


Spot the difference. One is legal one is not. End of story.

Image
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:58 pm

Just of to the scrappy...
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:01 pm

I meant OFF to the scrappy, of course..
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:48 pm

brakedisc wrote:Image


Spot the difference. One is legal one is not. End of story.

Image
In your opinion.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by brakedisc » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:29 am

Pete,

I wish it was my opinion but it is not. It is the opinion of the MSA Technical dept.

As nonsensical as it is the straight leg is legal, the bent leg is not. Be prepared for worse to come.
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:07 pm

Has that been confirmed direct by the MSA or is it your interpretation of the Blue Book. By worst to come are you referring to the rumours of the possibility of adopting the German requirement for additional door bars where the cage is home installed?

One point I would make is that if the regulations are enforced only as stated in the Blue Book then all Clan rollcages, including yours, are illegal due to the requirement for a welded reinforcement plate being required for the feet. Stupid I know and fortunately Scrutineers realise that this is not only inappropriate but stupid.

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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:54 pm

From the FIA website

01.07.2010 | Rolling out safety measures The FIA Institute working alongside ProDrive to develop and improve specifications, guidelines and the construction of Roll Over Protection Systems (ROPS) for rally and circuit cars.

The FIA Institute’s new ROPS project aims to improve driver safety by improving current materials and technologies, and establishing best practices. It is intended that this project will deliver specifications that exceed the requirements of current FIA regulations in order to provide drivers with improved protection during accidents whilst ensuring consistent fabrication methods.

World Rally driver Chris Atkinson’s crash at the Rally of Great Britain in 2008 has acted as a point of reference for ROPS engineers. This accident, where Atkinson was turned upside down in his roll cage, raised concerns among engineers and encouraged them to examine and explore possible new designs and to improve roll cage safety.

The new ROPS project will not change roll cage geometrics. It will however, examine current regulations as regards testing roll cages and will conduct tests on energy absorption as opposed to focusing more on roll cage strength.

The project will initially assess three important aspects: steel grades (including 15CDV6, T45, Clubman500 and CFS360); weld type (TIG and MIG); and joint design (plain and gusset configurations).

Having completed the initial analysis by quasis-static and dynamic tests on subcomponents (pictured), a number of Subaru Imprezas will be prepared for full scale dynamic impact testing to determine the ultimate performance levels of the leading ROPS designs.

It is hoped that this testing will lead to devising measures to stop roll cage tubes and joints breaking and to improve energy absorption capacities.

Andrew Mellor, Director of Research for the FIA institute said: “It’s exciting for the FIA Institute to continue the ROPS safety programme as ultimately this may allow best practice to be adopted across the whole of motorsport from International Championships to club racing.”
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brakedisc
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by brakedisc » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:25 pm

benwick3 wrote:Has that been confirmed direct by the MSA or is it your interpretation of the Blue Book. By worst to come are you referring to the rumours of the possibility of adopting the German requirement for additional door bars where the cage is home installed?

One point I would make is that if the regulations are enforced only as stated in the Blue Book then all Clan rollcages, including yours, are illegal due to the requirement for a welded reinforcement plate being required for the feet. Stupid I know and fortunately Scrutineers realise that this is not only inappropriate but stupid.

Pete Richards
Pete,

confirmed by MSA hence why new front legs were made and fitted and why my project is 18 months behind schedule.

Re your other point, can you not weld steel to GRP. tut tut you are slipping. Everyone knows that Clans can be welded :D
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:48 pm

Ok. Just to get this absolutely right in my mind, I've been in touch with a BARC scrutineer.
Apparently, there have been a lot of discussions regarding the rollcage "2 bends" situation.
His view (and other scrutineers view) with regards to this problem, was that, if it is not practical to have one bend at the top to maintain close proximity with the form of the interior of the car, then 2 bends (as long as they are not extreme) would be acceptable, where this made a better engineering solution than having just one bend leaving a large gap between the cage and the body. The conclusion was reached whereby the law would not be taken absolutely literally where this could not be possible to apply strictly to it. It would still be open to interpretation.
The main concern was the tube diameter, 45mm for the main hoop, 38mm for the rest and there being no "s" type, multiple bends, to compromise the strength.
He made a recommendation to bond the floor fixing plates in with fibreglass and to also bond the cage to the body of the car, where practically possible, making a more rigid assembly and making it more acceptable from a safety ponit of view.
So, there you, er I mean I, have it. I will be allowed to race in the BARC Northern Series with this rollcage................I'd better get back to the scrapyard and pick my bits up :)

Tim
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Keith 'Supaimpy' Laming » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:57 pm

Brakedisc

can you show a picture of the leg from inside the car to better illustrate the bar you have now and previously?

also this bit about one bend, in how many planes? ie a bend that also twists the leg as most Sunbeams and Escorts do? All I can see is an awful lot of cars not being able to compete

the really silly bit is some classes you don't even need a cage, ASWMC had a row a few years back over rear cages needing a diagonal, even in cars that didn't need a cage but had one for the drivers peace of mind!
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:30 pm

Quote
The main concern was the tube diameter, 45mm for the main hoop, 38mm for the rest and there being no "s" type, multiple bends, to compromise the strength

Tim
Does your rollcentre cage have a 45mm main hoop? when I spoke to them they said is was all 38mm :?

Many many area of the bluebook are vague and open to different interpretations, some are just plain wrong, in that when challenged the MSA will state that what is printed contains an error but hey we are all human.

While the scrutineers make the decision on the day the MSA has final say in any decision, so while they are giving good advice they can be directed differently in the future.

As for the floor plates I have been thinking about laminating a steel plate into floor/sill and then this means the reinforcing plate can be welded to it and hence meets the rules 100%. In reality is the reinforcing plate would be welded first before fibreglassing it in for obvious reasons.

I believe the requirements for a non approved cage is off the order 7.5G in a vertical plane 5.5G fore & aft and 1.5G lateral and unsure of the limits of deflection that are allowed but probably fairly small. If the Clan weights 600kg then that is 4500kg in the vertical plane, these requirements may have been pulled from thin air but more likely from some empirical data from previous accidents. Its clear from the investigations being carried out by the FIA that they feel the current specs are inadequate - maybe too strong ie looking at energy absorbtion to reduce injury.

Ignoring the Clan specific issue for the moment and take a Car of 1500kg that is 11250kg or over 11tons in the vertical plane. The strongest design is a straight vertical tube add a bend and if the load is high enough it will bend further at this point. Add further bends and the ability to resist bending is further reduced and more difficult to predict how hence the reason they want one bend.
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by Swimpster » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:43 am

Hi Scott

The main hoop is definitely 45mm and the rest of the frame is 38mm. When I spoke to them, they did say that they'd only got the cutting dimensions and little else in terms of assembly and information, mainly due to the fact that it was designed a long time ago and they had little demand for it.

I took the view that it would be a good start and, in fairness, it's much better than starting from scratch. There is some cutting and fiddling to do but, overall, it does follow the lines of the bodywork pretty well.

I can appreciate why they want only one bend in the vertical section, as it would reduce failure of the cage considerably, in the event of an accident. To be honest, I find it strange that a reg would be put in writing and then be open to interpretation. It would be far better to have a reg that states something like "Ideally the roll bar should have only one bend beneath the windscreen, where practical, however if this is not practical, then further bends may be allowed as long as they provide a sound engineering solutuion".

I am going to bond the floor plates in and also bond the cage to the side of the car in the footwell and where it is close to the roof.

It looks like it will still come down to individual scrutineers on the day, so, really, we're no further forward. At least I know the BARC NW area will accept it.

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by benwick3 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:54 pm

To everyone with a Clan with a front cage with a bend to follow the windscreen pillar confirmation that this is OK is contained within the latest edition of MSA News published today.

Pete Richards
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Re: Clan Roll Cage

Post by bks974c » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:44 pm

Article Pete mentioned

Roll Over Protection Systems
The MSA Technical Department wishes to clarify that the upper portion of the front legs of a ROPS is permitted to bend in such a way that it follows the windscreen A-pillar. The example pictured is therefore in compliance with MSA regulations. (sorry could not get the pic to copy)

Oh dear interpretation again - still does not say more than one bend with its lower vertical part.
An example of a compliant cage is the imp at the top it takes a slight twist to follow the windscreen pillars and then drops down to the floor with one bend.

I would guess that the MSA has attempted to clarify what they mean by the one bend rule as its causing confusion not for just us Claners.

Scott
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