HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:20 pm

I'd take those TV scheduled listings with a pinch of salt, MotorsTV are known to deviate without notice - a friend is involved in the presenting of the Eurotruck series and told us when she'd be on the screen...one week later at some ridiculous time it happened.
Well done, Andy :D Looking forward to seeing it.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by simon hulse » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:02 pm

bazzateer wrote:He does his own engines as far as I know! :wink:
His engines are done by SHRIGLEY ENGINEERING you cant miss it , its written down the sides of is car in big letters, and just in case you didn't know Shrigley is Andy.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:36 pm

I don't have Sky anymore so it would be brill if someone could record the Motors programme and post it somewhere accessible on the net. :wink:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by bazzateer » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:35 pm

simon hulse wrote:
bazzateer wrote:He does his own engines as far as I know! :wink:
His engines are done by SHRIGLEY ENGINEERING you cant miss it , its written down the sides of is car in big letters, and just in case you didn't know Shrigley is Andy.
I know, that's why I said he does his own and used the winking smiley. :D
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Grumpyoldmen » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:38 am

Have now seen the YouTube clip from Brands Hatch and it was a great race.
Unfortunately not the whole heat. Are there a part 2?
Anyway, it was one of the best races I have seen
http://historicracing-photo.blogspot.se/
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Andy Hillman » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:09 pm

Glad you enjoyed video,sorry it was cut short,i got a litte flustered mid corner whilst trying to defend my position,anyway found myself fishing for 2nd gear ended up in reverse gate ! consequently had a massive over rev and poor Hillman never felt as strong after, so i short shifted the last 6 mins of the race as i was worried i may have bent or spun something inside.
I was so annoyed at my self i cant bare to watch that part of the video.
It was great to see all the imp fans out for the meeting especially Nigel who was on holiday with family,He had somehow manged to arrange for his loyal pal John to collect him from Center Parks !
if you want to see the vid just search'' hillman imp brands hatch indy onboard with the hillmanator'' on youtube :D
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by bazzateer » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:34 pm

Andy Hillman wrote: if you want to see the vid just search'' hillman imp brands hatch indy onboard with the hillmanator'' on youtube :D
Blimey Andy! The titles get longer every race! :lol:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:35 pm

"massive over rev ":shock: Andy, can't you run a rev limiter like an Omex or is it not allowed in historics? If not, for sure, I'd hide one somewhere away from the nosey scruts just for peace of mind!
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by cov_climax » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:45 pm

^ won't stop a mechanical over-rev from a wrong gear (i.e 2nd instead of 4th) though peter, i can't contemplate what getting reverse might do :shock:

Andy, can't remember if you have a bar/gate fitted to stop being able to get reverse instead of second, i know some of the hillclimb chaps used to have these.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by ChrisBenoy » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:53 pm

Rev limiters are a waste of time, cause misfires and all sorts of rubbish.

Enjoyed the video, will be watching that again I think. Intresting seeing Mikes cortina up close, having seen him race since I was in nappies but never from anywhere but the stands. Good racing from all at the front, lots of getting close with no paint swapped.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Grumpyoldmen » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:28 pm

Andy Hillman wrote: ....I was so annoyed at my self i cant bare to watch that part of the video........
I am with you on that....when things like that happen you just want do something (unspeakable).
Once again I looked at the race and it's really great (as long as it last)
Next race, man, next race!!! The car seems to have the potential
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:32 pm

[quote="ChrisBenoy"]Rev limiters are a waste of time, cause misfires and all sorts of rubbish.

[quote]
Having window shopped for just such a gizmo, I think it depends which one you buy as some quote something along the lines of "up to 8000rpm" which is clearly useless for our high revving motors. The more successful units (as far as I can gather) seem to be ones that introduce a 'soft-cut' before a 'you ain't going no faster sunshine' limit. I'd be intersted to hear peoples' thoughts before I spend, but I can't help feeling it's a useful insurance for up-changes, plus just about every modern bike has one (Bike magazine ran a test - more to test lubrication - where they emptied the sump of a bike, pinned the throttle open and stepped back. Half an hour later it was still running but the exhaust caught fire :o ).
Of course it won't help a mechanical over-rev. I've hooked second instead of fourth once in a standard Imp and it locked the rear wheels before I hit the clutch quick as a flash :roll: . Wouldn't have thought collecting reverse would achieve anything more than nasty graunchy teeth noises - mechanically it should slow/stall the engine whilst causing who knows what damage to the drivetrain.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:57 pm

Andy Hillman wrote: if you want to see the vid just search'' hillman imp brands hatch indy onboard with the hillmanator'' on youtube :D
Couldn't find it...can anyone who has please pop a link on here for this old technophobe :oops:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:04 pm

Good point well put Brian

A mechanical over-rev wasn't even on my radar mainly 'cos I've never been under "race pressure" to experienced one :lol:

Don't agree about ALL electronic rev limiters being no good though. I have an Omex rev limiter which had performed faultlessly in either hard or soft cut mode when I used a dizzy and the current Canems soft and hard cut limiter is 100% reliable too. The Omex will be going on the Lotus to replace the OEM one when it causes probs ...now I agree that those fitted to the 900 Lotus series DO cause exactly the problems you describe Chris, but the Omex one I have is in a diffenrt ball park.

But yep, won't help a mechanical over rev though well spotted Brian! :wink:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by ibbo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:06 pm

i used a rev limiter on the davrian with a soft cut ive used a few over the years and never had a problem in the heat of battle you dont have time to look at a rev counter they should only cause a problem if they are wired in wrong hate to think what my bike engined westy would rev to without one easy to hit limiter when giving it some in the lower gears
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:09 pm

I think the record for an F1 on mechanical over-rev was 26,000rpm, albeit for just a second or two before it went pear-shaped :o
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by simon hulse » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:13 pm

Many years ago I went to watch the Autocross revival meeting at Thoresby Park where the late great Win Percy was due to guest drive Peter Harper's special car, now Win was a big lad and a tight fit in the car and during his first practice run stretched his right leg and pushed the throttle pedal so hard in wedged behind the chassis, the car did three 360 spins in a cloud of smoke and steam before Win found the kill switch to stop it. Peter Harper's mechanic reckoned the head had actually lifted off the block of the £4000 motor that he had just finished rebuilding and was not a happy man, neither was Peter. He never used a rev limiter cos he thought he didn't need one. Win Percy quietly sloped off back to Australia.
I fitted a luminition smooth cut limiter after that, used it for my hillclimbs and sprints and its still on, has never given any trouble , I use it with Luminition black box ignition.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Teddie2003 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:17 pm

ChrisBenoy wrote:Rev limiters are a waste of time, cause misfires and all sorts of rubbish.
Having window shopped for just such a gizmo, I think it depends which one you buy as some quote something along the lines of "up to 8000rpm" which is clearly useless for our high revving motors. The more successful units (as far as I can gather) seem to be ones that introduce a 'soft-cut' before a 'you ain't going no faster sunshine' limit. I'd be intersted to hear peoples' thoughts before I spend, but I can't help feeling it's a useful insurance for up-changes.

On all three of the comp cars I've run, Hillclimb 998cc Imp, Hillclimb 998cc Clan & a pre-66 875cc based circuit car they all had "a 'soft-cut' rev limiters fitted, used to buy them at the race car show and then get them set up on the stand by the manufacturer. It was always bought as a useful insurance for missed gears on up-changes, for a few quid it could potentially save you lots.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Teddie2003 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:20 pm

simon hulse wrote:where the late great Win Percy was due to guest drive Peter Harper's special car,
Don't think Win is a "late great" yet. Thought he was still alive
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:21 pm

/\/\Quite. What brand have you used?

EDIT...sorry, that was for the post above the...er..one above :oops:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Teddie2003 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:24 pm

Meltdown wrote:/\/\Quite. What brand have you used?

EDIT...sorry, that was for the post above the...er..one above :oops:
I think it's an MD, but I'll look in the back of the Clan on Wednesday and let you know
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:24 pm

Thanks in advance :D
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by simon hulse » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:33 pm

Teddie2003 wrote:
simon hulse wrote:where the late great Win Percy was due to guest drive Peter Harper's special car,

Don't think Win is a "late great" yet. Thought he was still alive
Sorry, my mistake,Win Percy was paralised from the waste down in a gardening accident in 2003, he is still alive and still great.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by speeddemon » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:26 am

rev limiters are for girls and banned on shrigley engineering engines :lol:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Teddie2003 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:35 am

speeddemon wrote:rev limiters are for girls and banned on shrigley engineering engines :lol:
well "us girls" who sometimes have found gear no 3.5 in the gearbox have found them useful in the past
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Grumpyoldmen » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:45 am

Now and then I hear about "blown-up" engines.......maybe it's because absence of rev limiter???

Actually I don't understand this "fear" of a good rev limiter. In reality it is essential on £5000 engine
http://historicracing-photo.blogspot.se/
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Teddie2003 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:41 am

Grumpyoldmen wrote: "In reality it is essential on £5000 engine"
fully agree, not having it is a bit like not improving the brakes/handling on a car once you've sorted out the engine.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:47 am

You are right grumpy, currently no one can build imp engines with bomb proof unlimited revs, not even Andy Jones, and I'm sure he'd have to agree. :wink:

Andy Chesman, however, could. :twisted:


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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:34 pm

Meltdown wrote:
Andy Hillman wrote: if you want to see the vid just search'' hillman imp brands hatch indy onboard with the hillmanator'' on youtube :D
Couldn't find it...can anyone who has please pop a link on here for this old technophobe :oops:
Found it now, titled :hillman imp brands hatch indy historic touring car
Andy you naughty boy, it's supposed to be a standing start :lol: Good effort :D
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by ganderson888 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:28 pm

Meltdown wrote: Found it now, titled :hillman imp brands hatch indy historic touring car
That'll be this one then....
8)

Great drive Andy!
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by ChrisBenoy » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:35 pm

Oops, hadn't meant to start a big debate. I'd just seen a lot of painful issues caused on a car I once helped out with that was fitted with a very nasty outdated limiter that re-set itself whenever disconnected from the battery. I'm guessing that modern ones don't do this and don't cause any issues. I remember Colin Guntons car not starting for a while due to a limiter issue but i'm guessing this was a setup error (limitier set to a lower limit than the car would start on perhaps?)

I'm not sure i'd run one personally, I'm against the craze of having computers controlling my engine in any way but once again if I had a very expensive race engine that I couldn't afford to replace then I'd think very carefully about fitting one, particularly a good quality one with a soft cut. I dont spend nearly enough time to track for it to be a real issue for me.

As for the comment about limiters being for girls... can only suggest that it is tempting fate as a current racer :lol:

Remind me to never post an off the cuff comment again without engaging brain.

While on the topic of random things saving engines, the westfield owners I know all have accusump fitted to deal with surge issues. I'm not particularly versed on how they work but it seems to be that they plumb into the oil system and when they sense a lack of pressure (either electronically or mechanically) they boost some in from their tank, can deal with a different period of low pressure depending on the size.

This to me has always seemed like a very good idea but i've never seen one fitted to an imp. Is there a reason why?
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by cov_climax » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:17 pm

probably cost, they're about £200, i did look at it a few months back,

it's basically an accuminator* that goes in the supply line and holds the oil at engine pressure, i can't remember if there is a fancy one-way valve to stop it passing back through the pump, but if the oil pump delivery pressure drops the reservoir starts to empty and keep the supply line to the engine charged.

You can also have a valve (electronic or manual ) so you can store the accuminator charged with pressurised oil before engine shut-off and then open the valve before starting for pre-lubrication.

* accuminator is a pressure vessel with a bladder inside, the bladder is filled with pressurised gas (air or nitrogen). as the oil is at higher pressure it fills the vessel and displaces some of the bladders volume, if the oil supply drops the oil is forced out of the vessel by the bladders' pressure, that's my laymans understanding
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by ChrisBenoy » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:29 pm

That was always my understanding of roughly how they worked and i'd consider them to be a decent idea on a race engine (worth in excess of £3500 the cost of the accusump pales somewhat) when people are going to rather a lot of effort to sort out sumps that stop surge on left hand bends. Might be something worth looking into perhaps as most of the blow ups i've seen of imp engines are from oil starvation and the subsequent overheating of rod causing the rod bolts to snap and exit the block.

I'd just wondered if someone had tried one and it didnt work or if there was an inherent reason why it wouldnt work on an imp engine. Might be something to save up for to try and run on a cheap engine around a tight fast left hand bend and see if the oil pressure stays high or not. This seems to be what the people in Lotus 7 style cars are using them to combat so the concept must be sound.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by cov_climax » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:07 pm

Yep, i believe they work and as you say lot cheaper and easier than a dry sump. I know a lot of lotus elise owners use them for track-days especially when they switch to sticky tyres, think it's the toyota engine'd cars that suffer more so than the K-series.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:25 pm

Re :accumulators ...good idea as long as your system is designed to get over the time delay / oil DIVERSION away from the bearings to REFILL/PRESSURISE the accumulator after a discharge.. ie it saves you once and then SLAPS you for doing it again too soon... :lol:

I think you can design the system (using valves ...another thing to go wrong mind) to overcome this inherent problem but thankfully there are other ways to skin a cat.
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by speeddemon » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:56 pm

no rev limiter on the 16 valver we have just done. Whoops shouldnt have let that out of bag hahhahahh :mrgreen:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:58 pm

We? :lol:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Meltdown » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:59 pm

speeddemon wrote:no rev limiter on the 16 valver we have just done. Whoops shouldnt have let that out of bag hahhahahh :mrgreen:
:lol: Well the cams have got nearly twice as much work to do so maybe it'l never make it past 8krpm :lol:
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by speeddemon » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:53 pm

what does " we " mean. You are one daft arse person. 9500 plus , First outing coming up soon
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Re: HSCC Historic Touring Cars 2011

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:43 pm

The joke is you my friend. And your reputation is growing... :lol:
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