Spaceframe Imps

johnh875 · Post by **johnh875** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:48 am

Thanks for posting the video Steve, I've not seen the racing before so very interesting.

jdm · Post by **jdm** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:26 pm

big J wrote:Les Campbell just sent me some more pics,and exotic ones too!
This is a March F3 with variously a Vaux 16v or BDA/BDG? coupled to a Hewland box, then owned by Kevin Day.
Good man Les,bang on.

would anyone have any information or recollection of this car? I am currently installing a new engine/box combo for its current owner and would like to find out more of its history/origins. the origonal post suggests the car is March based but its got 6stud rear hubs and the rear uprights/driveshafts resemble lotus stuff i have seen in pictures on 10tenths forum the car is monocoque based ,the righthand tub having been moved out about 6 inches, allowing the driver to sit to the right of centreline (just). any info/views welcomed
thanks . john donnelly

big J · Post by **big J** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:26 pm

That's interesting,John.I would have assumed from the pics that it was a spaceframe with a stressed ally skin,but the main tub is a monocoque with a semi spaceframe bolted on.
Could it possibly be a March tub with Lotus corners added,perhaps to suit the owners preference/budget?
Is there a chassis number or manufacturers i.d. anywhere?

Oh,and I know I'm a pest,but some pics of the rebuild would be peaches and creamy.

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:41 pm

Who owns the car now

col

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:40 pm

Hey all, seems this thread is till aloud, great, Im after some information, with regards to the Mquire imp chassis. Does anyone know the race weight or there abouts.

Also when running perspex, can 2-3 mm be used on the side, door and and rear window sections? let me know please thanks mike

ImpManiac · Post by **ImpManiac** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:07 pm

Not certain for your regulations but the MSA blue book says 4mm for my steel-bodied car for sprints and hillclimbs.

IM

big J · Post by **big J** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:29 pm

Yep,afaik,it's 4mm Mike.Sorry,dont know about the weights but I wouldnt think 500kg would be wildly out??

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:52 pm

I think its just the windscreen that has to be 4mm but not perspex lexan is good as its polycarbonate ,i think your ok with 2mm in the sides as mine is 2mm lexan and no one has ever said anything about it ,perspex is crap as it shatters as lexan wont hope this helps mike

col

big J · Post by **big J** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:34 pm

Taken from the blue book-
(h) Except for racing cars, be fitted with a
windscreen. if plastic windscreen, sidescreens or
rear windows are fitted the thickness must not be
less than 4mm.

Col Rooney,yer a naughty boy.

Megapin · Post by **Megapin** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:00 am

Think you will find the race weight of Maguire's between 400-440kg depending on spec.
Keith Scott or Harry will be able to tell you closer.

knocker · Post by **knocker** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:39 pm

430kg with a full tank.

Meltdown · Post by **Meltdown** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:48 pm

As an aside, a BS Nymph weighs in at 420kg dry.

belgimper_jac · Post by **belgimper_jac** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:17 pm

Hi,

Space frame MAGUIRE at MARCHIN,BELGIUM (historic hill climb,Sat.10 july 2010.)

Well-know Belgian Impdriver Heinz Pfeiffer...very fast.

Hot summer day: 35°C.After the race,...to hot inside .
Anyone knows how many Maguires (like this) are still alive in U.K.?

Cheers,Jac.

ImpManiac · Post by **ImpManiac** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:08 pm

That's stunning!

Got any more photos? Could you email me some, please?

I cannot answer your question, though. Sorry.

IM

belgimper_jac · Post by **belgimper_jac** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:28 pm

Thank you for the answer Paul,

The Blue Maguire: some photos from Belgian events

2009 Tros-Marets Historic hill-Climb

2010 Ciney Retromoteur

2010 Marchin Hill-Climb

Cheers,Jac.

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:39 pm

Thats a very nice car and well prepped. One of the best surviving mquires around. most of the ones left seem to be either bashed bent or scrap.

Thats a small sump.

knocker · Post by **knocker** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:19 pm

knocker wrote:
big J wrote:Robert,would you ever had a chance to compare the prototype Davrian saloon to a later car?Just curious if the design changed,there seems to have been a considerable time between this and the Homewood/Hall car being commisioned.
Who's Heinz?

Heinz is a chap from Belgium met him a National day at Paddock Wood had a blue race G15 a Rawlson and a Davrian imp looks like the car on page 11 number 125 also showed be a picture he had of a Maguire stiletto he had just bought to restore.

ImpManiac · Post by **ImpManiac** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:45 pm

Jac,

Thank you! Fantastic pictures!

You just made my day!

What is the alloy tank that is attached to the engine? A breather tank?

IM

Lotus-e-Clan · Post by **Lotus-e-Clan** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:25 am

Paul I was gonna ask the same Q!

Looks like a catch tank directly attached to the cam cover...would cut out a lot of unnecessary pipe work.

Smart thinking!

Lotus-e-Clan · Post by **Lotus-e-Clan** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:56 am

No...looked again and I can see the normal filler neck is present with a large diameter black pipe attached.....catch tank close by probably attached to the engine mounting frame above?

Talking about large v small sumps. My thinking is there is no justification for fitting a large sump to a race car.

reasoning to fit or not fit a large sump IMHO are:

* high oil consumption on long events - not likely on a properly built engine in good condition - might be an advantage for a long distance (marathon) rally car

* poor oil return to the sump at high revs needing a larger reserve - not needed --you just design a better sump baffle/windage plate with better oil return. Again, efficient oil return to the sump is a key factor in minimising oil frothing too (although admitedly a large sump would help reduce the effect of frothing)

* better oil cooling reserve - faulty logic, as at sustained high revs in a racing machine the hottest oil is sump oil superheated by pistons and cylinders etc. Best to design a more efficient oil cooling system - like an oil water heat exchanger.

* prevents oil surge/stavation at pick-up - again faulty logic, as the smaller sump stops a lot of oil surge under braking and you can stop lateral surge by a good baffle design in a small sump.

And what racer would chose to carry all that unnecessary excess weight of oil and sump metal work?

benwick3 · Post by **benwick3** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:00 am

Peter,

A racer who wants to preserve his engine. If you look closely at the sump on Heinz's car you will see that it is an enlarged sump with an extension on the bottom of the existing standard sump. The same as fitted to my Clan pre conversion to dry sump. Interestingly I think this is the first time I've seen this modification on one of his cars. It's the same as fitted to the engines I supplied to Michel Chapel for his Clan which he is using with some success in the French Maxi Mille series.

Why not come and prove your theories on the track. How do you think your small sump engine with water/oil cooler would have stood up for 30 minutes at full revs in temperatures of 38 - 42 degrees as I had at Zolder at the weekend?

Pete Richards

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:27 pm

at some stage the front has also undegone change , looks like a grille has been put in place, wouldnt mind having blast against it. I have asked big J to put some pics of my car up , they will be on tonight or tomoz,

belgimper_jac · Post by **belgimper_jac** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:15 pm

Thanks a lot guys,

alloy tank?...small sump?...sorry

,i have no engine pics and no answer,but hopefully Heinz will be next month at Brigwater-National 2010.

He is a Imp Club Member but not on the forum.

Cheers,jac.

Lotus-e-Clan · Post by **Lotus-e-Clan** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Pete you are so competitive!

No one would doubt your own extensive experience.

However, there is nothing I've said that I wouldn't stand by after reading your post and there is more than one way to skin a cat.

The sump in the picture is a std small conformation that is deeper. Someone commented with surprise about it not being a large sump and I assumed that person was referring to the larger long sump conformation that only cover up problems elsewhere such as inadequate oil cooling and less than clever sump baffling.

I have one of the long sumps which a lot of people use and I have no use for it so if anyone wants it they can have it for free. It is a fairly common, but bad, design with holes in the partition that will trap oil under braking...Eric IIRC, came to the same conclusion about these sumps too after he suffered oil surge under braking.

So not just my theory that the smaller sump is better in this respect.

As to proving my oil cooling system works at sustained high revs ..I've done that on the road to a degree, easy to do with a 12 mph top gear, but obviously not under exactly under the same conditions you describe at Zolder.

And as to why not come racing.... that might have happened before now but life got in the way (eg sons' cancer during 2008/9) plus I had a long wait for new pistons as you know.

belgimper_jac · Post by **belgimper_jac** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:46 pm

knocker wrote:
knocker wrote:
big J wrote:Robert,would you ever had a chance to compare the prototype Davrian saloon to a later car?Just curious if the design changed,there seems to have been a considerable time between this and the Homewood/Hall car being commisioned.
Who's Heinz?
Heinz is a chap from Belgium met him a National day at Paddock Wood had a blue race G15 a Rawlson and a Davrian imp looks like the car on page 11 number 125 also showed be a picture he had of a Maguire stiletto he had just bought to restore.

Hi,

Francorchamps 2004. Heinz Pfeiffer Davrian-Imp.

Number 125 and number 240...same colour,same eyes, same front-spoiler,same wheels....same car of course

Cheers,Jac.

big J · Post by **big J** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:34 pm

Some new pics from Mike,some fairly heavy duty rebuild work going on

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:42 pm

Thanks big J, yes im on with the build, quite time consuming, As said chassis have been blasted and repaired as needed, Chopped the old pedal box off cos it was modified from a centre seat position. Then of course the dreaded RIVET HOLES

But they had to be done as im putting the panel work inside the sections.so i can remove them for access.

This is my Fibre glass man, hes my neighbour and buddy and giving me a hand and showing me the job. we have repaneled the lower side sections and if you look in the garage with the car inside upside down we have now removed thefront panel made a new section and lip to take a splitter, which will be made from lite timber and be removabale. Should do the job.

I will have some more pics tomoz

I also have a stiletto shell now so im going to mould the roof and other panels asap

benwick3 · Post by **benwick3** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:32 pm

Peter,

You misunderstood what I said or I did not make it clear. Heinz's sump is a standard sump with an extension to the bottom and consequently it could be described as enlarged as it contains more oil than a standard sump. It is the same design I used pre dry sump, and would use if I was restricted to a wet sump by regulations. I adopted the deeper sump after discussion with Ian Carter some years before he died. I agree completely about the long enlarged sump.

Pete Richards

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:37 pm

Mike your a brave man i know my car has not got a lot of steel in her and most of the spaceframe car i have looked at dont but with all them holes im sure it has taken a lot of the strenght out of the box section ,you want to check the frame for hair line cracks

col

Post edited by GA to remove duplicated photos

Meltdown · Post by **Meltdown** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:03 pm

Holes are a good idea as they lessen the chance of twisting and reduce weight, but Colin's right in what he says as they do look a bit big for the box section size.

colin rooney · Post by **colin rooney** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:15 pm

Well having worked on structural steel years ago when you wanted to pass pipe work through an rsj we were always told to put a diamond shape as the points would stop the stress and i know im on about heavy steel but i would think the same rule for box section ,but if it has lasted this long it must be ok ,but dk it as you have it all apart

col

Meltdown · Post by **Meltdown** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:50 pm

as the points would stop the stress

That's odd. I'm not doubting you, Colin, but I was under the impression that to stop a crack you should drill the end...making a circle to stop the stress.

Any material engineers out there?

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:33 pm

Hey guys dont be worrying about my car as im certainly not

you start worrying about being on the track come early next year

Hopefully we will all be there having a blast against each other hahahahahah.

Chassis have had some bars removed as they were doing nothing and some put in for extra strength, car was centre seated at some point. But its not far from the powder coaters now. Just waiting to mount the seat and realign the steering and then mostly done.

We are also making a brand new tube chassis for the stiletto so that will start later this year and also doing the moulds similer to the mquire, but they will be my design.

Ive just done the front lower section with lip to take a fabricated splitter

Thanks for your interest.

big J · Post by **big J** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:35 am

I'm gonna duplicate the pics Lee from spaceframecars sent me.He's assisting with a rebuild of George Gunns Stiletto,a damn nice car.

Post edited by GA - As all the photo's that were originally posted here have been duplicated in another thread they have been removed. They can be found here;
http://www.theimpclub.co.uk/viewtopic.p ... 69#p138469

big J · Post by **big J** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:39 am

Post edited by GA - As all the photo's that were originally posted here have been duplicated in another thread they have been removed. They can be found here;
http://www.theimpclub.co.uk/viewtopic.p ... 69#p138469

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:30 am

Always a tough job trying to remount a different motor, but looks like you are getting there. Good luck Lee

big J · Post by **big J** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:53 pm

No worries Lee,glad to help.

It's a fine machine,looks like you're doing some nice work there.

John

ganderson888 · Post by **ganderson888** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:37 am

leeboy44 wrote:hi jon i have loads of photos for you to put up !! i will add them to my website tomorrow
thanks lee

Not wishing to diminish what your doing with this superb car but could I ask that you post just 4 more photo's to whet our appetite please and then include a direct link to the page of the website where they're all published.

Thanks in advance,

big J · Post by **big J** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:54 am

Is there a problem with the pictures Graham?I'm using photobucket to host them,thought that'd be ok?

ganderson888 · Post by **ganderson888** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:04 am

Hosting photo's via photobucket is the preferred method to link photo's to a thread, however the high number posted in those two posts has caused difficulty with loading for some readers.

Additionally if someone replies to either post but doesn't remove the image codes they would all be repeated thus exacerbating the loading problem. This then causes more work for us Moderators as would need to edit each of these posts.

Personally I also found a lot of the pictures interesting but have to say some looked very similar if not duplicated, and I couldn't easily differentiate between some of the close ups as there are no captions. They way that have been uploaded on to the website is perfect as the captions help the viewer understand what he photo is about.

Hope that explains the reasons behind my previous post.

big J · Post by **big J** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:17 pm

No worries Graham,I'll keep the number of pics per post down and edit them as best as I can.
I saw that a lot of the pics were similar all right,but I reckoned it was better to submit as much info as possible in case there were lads considering building something similar.I reckoned the more pictorial info the better.
Would say,5 pics per post work better?

John

ganderson888 · Post by **ganderson888** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:43 pm

big J wrote:No worries Graham,I'll keep the number of pics per post down and edit them as best as I can.
John

John,
It would also be appreicated if photos are not duplicated across threads.
Providing a link from one to the other is quite sufficient which is what I've now done to your earlier posts in this thread.

grahamdelooze · Post by **grahamdelooze** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:59 pm

Hard to get a car under 400kg. I bought the spaceframe which became the Benoy Rawlson off Ian Toon he knows the history of the car.
If your building a new spaceframe then it would be better to choose a multi tubular design that resembles a triangulated roll cage than get hung up trying to poduce a true spacframe out of loads of small tubes, its also easier and cheaper and more robust.Dont get me wrong I still like bronze welded small tube frames ive done a few but they are very time consuming and expensive.Also consider a simple riveted alloy tub center section which doubles as the lower body with front and rear tube frames with something like the jedi grp body on top.
graham

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:46 pm

All been a bit quiet on this post, However hoping to post some pictures soon. Body shell is nearly ready for primer, chassis needs a few days and powder coat , il put them up asap, thanks all mike

doc knutsen · Post by **doc knutsen** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:27 pm

jonboi997 wrote:hi all new to this forum been following this excellent thread for a while !!
and i really want to do a full space frame imp does anyone know how many metres of cds steel i will need roughly ?
i was thinking 75 metres ?? too much ?
jon

Get the weight of a bare tubular frame of a design close to what you are aiming for, and establish the weight per metre of the steel tubing that you are proposing to use. That should allow you to calculate roughly how many metres of tube you would be looking for. Calculate on some tubing having to be thrown away due to wrong measurements or shaping...unless you are very experienced

)
Incidentally, I find Tig-welding the structures very efficient and with little heat distortion. Although the fit of the tube junction is fairly critical. (do invest in a good tube notcher if you haven't got one already).

big J · Post by **big J** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:23 am

Jonboi,a guy I know is building a Lotus 7 type thing,he's got about 50m of 1" tubing in it he reckons.
Here's a chart I found that might help some with weight calculations.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/ ... eights.gif

Hope that helps.

John

big J · Post by **big J** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:43 am

Speeddemon Mike sent on some more pics,he's put a ton of work in by the looks of things.
Good man,Mike.

colimp66 · Post by **colimp66** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:29 am

Thats pretty impressive.
Alot of work put in there

Col.

speeddemon · Post by **speeddemon** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:00 am

Im trying to keep this thead alive, so if anyone has new or old projects up and going add them to the thread.

My fibreglassing skills are fairly basic but thats all these things need. Its alot of common sense and having a go, lucky for me as ive said neighbour has helped me out but doing the new moulds was fairly straight forward.

Cars now in primer and we are painting this weekend. Cars going to be White ( the new ford white ) then with a mix of silver, kawasaki green and black graphics.

Most race cars are pretty basic, but we want the car to stand out. I still am unsure how many cars are still racing?

Hopefully the power unit is going to Andy at Shrigley engineering for pull down and inspection thursday, we already aquired one of there Billet light weight flywheels and we are looking to increase the power output if possible.

Next on the list is a new stilletto.

It wil be a new breed of chassis called the ( Keimer chassis )

big J · Post by **big J** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:09 pm

Sounds good Mike.
Where does the name come from?