1-litre race series updated December 11th 2009

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1-litre race series updated December 11th 2009

Post by Gerry Richards » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:34 pm

I reckon there must be loads of people who want to race a smaller engine car but either the opportunities are limited (like with a Davrian) or you end up in a token 1300cc class giving away cc (like in the Classic and Sports Car Club) or against bigger machinery with no chance of a race victory (like with the HRSR). Wouldn't it be nice to have a full grid of sub 1-litre sports and saloon cars doing battle?

The demise of the old 1000cc saloon class and 1150cc modsports is well documented and they are much missed. Thinking about this and where I might potentially race my Davrian when (if ever?!) it's finished, I decided to do something about it, so, thanks to the power of t'internet, yesterday I formed my own motoring society!!

I haven't gone mad and I haven't been at the booze, and although I won't cry if this doesn't work out, it's got to be worth a try and I'm really serious. So come on, tell me what you think of this and whether you'd be interested. Better still, join up and we can get the ball rolling....!

http://www.classicandracing.co.uk/hundredthousand - updated 18th Feb - vote on which way the regs should go.

Cheers

Gerry
Last edited by Gerry Richards on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by ibbo » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:50 pm

cool i hope you get the support this deserves :lol:
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by benwick3 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:56 pm

Gerry,

Very good initiative and I've sent my details but forgot to put where I'm from - Cambridgeshire.

Difficulty will be getting a tie in with a suitable National Club that organises race meetings and also being able to guarantee adequate entries to justify a race and keep fees to a reasonable level. Unfortunately there are no longer any individual motor clubs running events where a trial race could occur. My local club, Peterborough, has decided this year to stop running a race meeting at Silverstone after 50+ years due to the financial risk and the difficulty in getting sufficient existing race series to take up races.

Anyway best of luck and if I can be of help let me know.

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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by Richard Claydon » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:15 pm

Great idea, details sent.

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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by ccharlie6 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:27 pm

Just submitted my details!

good luck, its a great idea
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by ganderson888 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:41 pm

Hope this succeeds Gerry,

Like Pete says not many individual clubs run meetings these days, I was Secretary of the Meeting for The Eight Clubs Meeting at Silverstone for about 18 years and it was no longer viable after our 52nd meeting back in 2001. :(

Whilst I haven't been involved since then I'm happy to talk to you about my experiences but regulation wise I'm like my poor little Imp - pretty rusty!
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by Gerry Richards » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:41 pm

Thanks for the interest so far guys. The member list has been updated [http://www.classicandracing.co.uk/hundr ... rlist.html] and we have 6 after 24 hours, all Imp powered so far, although I've been on some Mini, Ford and Fiat forums today to try and generate some interest. Keep those e-mails coming!

Two years to go until the flag drops, so far so good, lots of positive responses. How this might ultimately come about I really don't yet know, but one thing that I've learned through work is that if the basic idea is good and you have people on you side, things tend to happen...

Cheers

Gerry
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by bks974c » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:08 pm

Gerry

Good Luck with this.

This is meant to be helpful and provide food for thought, not critisism.

One of the reasons you state against racing with the "big boys" is no chance of victory, however the same applies with say a standard imp
against a 1040 Clan.

Some form of handicap system ie Power x weight x Tyre size x Slick/Road may allow that problem to be addressed and allow a Standard 875
All Steel and Glass Imp to compete on even terms will a "Race Clan".

This in my opinion would attract more entries and keep costs down as a Well Driven Standard Car would be able to Win. As with any race,
within every race there is a number of racing going on with cars of similar performance so everyone can be enjoying themselves

Best of luck

Scott
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by Gerry Richards » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:46 pm

Cheers Scott, totally constructive.

I've thought about this kind of conundrum over the many years I've been watching racing. All things are relative and it'd be nice to have a chance of an outright win even in a Clan/Davrian/G15, never mind an all-steel Imp. The only form of handicapping that would allow the slowest saloon to cross the line first would be the 'staggered start' system employed by the VSCC which can be good for spectators as the Bentleys steam around in pursuit of the Austin 7s, but ultimately leaves you with a feeling of a hollow victory when/if the slower car finishes first, and what overtaking there is can be a bit too easy and not really good to watch! The only thing that leads to genuinely good racing is well matched cars and there'll always be some difference between fastest and slowest.

The reason I've set a three year planning horizon is to iron these issues out, but we can't have too many changes as people need something to work to. There is always a tension between setting rules which allow people to exercise their inventiveness and improve their cars, but keeping speeds and costs in check.

I'm all for allowing cars to be as light as possible as this is essentially 'free speed' as long as it's safe. The minimum you'd expect with an Imp saloon would be to throw away the interior and fit GRP panels and you'd be surprised how close in weight you can get to a GRP car. Also allowing list 1b tyres can be a great equaliser as good tyres are a relatively cheap route to good performance. The regs as they stand attempt to restrict expenditure on brakes and dampers etc to keep it sensible.

The problem really comes with mechanical parts, as engines are a money pit and hard to legislate for without killing power and/or reliability. I'd like to think that people working on a budget and building engines themselves could be given an advantage, but how to do this? The only thing I can think of is to tell participants that the organisers have £1500 in a fund and they could choose at any point to buy any race winner's engine, and you compete on that basis...

I think there was a similar rule in 1970s sports car racing and it kept the expenditure on cars down, even though none actually ever got bought!
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by bazzateer » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:46 am

Good idea Gerry, I'm unlikely to race but will definitely be a spectator so have registered anyway.

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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by colin rooney » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:27 pm

Hi Gerry im up for this with my rawlson i have gone to register but i cant seem to get into it as it just closes my connection also may be worth putting something on www.10tenths.com race sit under the historic section as there is lot of intrest in imps on there

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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by Gerry Richards » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:59 pm

Well this has certainly got people thinking and communicating - the site is getting about 1500 page views per day, and I've had the deputy editor of Classic Car Weekly asking if he can do a piece, so there's obviously lots of interest.

A few people have sent their details, which is vital as names and picture of cars are the one thing I can publish on the website to prove that there's real interest rather than this being my own one-man campaign, so keep them coming. Don't forget that this isn't a club as such, just a list of interested parties with a common goal.

There's a fair amount of interest on Retro Rides and the Sporting Fiat Club site, and I've also been onto some Ford forums - still waiting to hear from the administrators of all the Mini forums I've applied to join, to activate my password, maybe they fear an Imp conspiracy!

The main discussion inevitably revolves around regs (doesn't it always!?). All correspondants agree that a small car class is a good basic idea and that the main aim is to ensure maximum accessibility for both existing racers and potential new people - the views expressed to me so far have been constructive ideas about the best approach to achieve this.

The two main schools of thought are basically:

1. Much as the site states now, with pretty careful regulation of vehicles to try and keep costs under control and speed differentials reasonable.

2. A much freer approach to eligible vehicle specification (maybe just pre-80, under 1000cc anything goes...) but with the regulation instead applied to the races themselves e.g. handicap based staggered starts or lap time adjustments, or to points scoring e.g. handicap based scoring systems.

The pros and cons of each approach are being considered, and I might consider publishing two alternative approaches on the 'site so that interested parties can get in touch and express their preference. I want to avoid complications and ambiguities as far as possible, whichever way it goes- watch this space!

Cheers for now

Gerry
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by ImpManiac » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:23 pm

Nice work, Gerry! :D There has been a gap in this market for way too long! Anything I/we can do, just ask! :)

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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by colin rooney » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:31 pm

Gerry i just had a look in the regs and i see there may not be a class C i should have known never mind

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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by onomatopoeia » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:40 pm

Fascinating idea Gerry, really hope it takes off. I don't do racing due to my fear of being caught up in someone else's accident and in any case my car is completely ineligible :lol: but I'll be along to watch at the first meeting :D .
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Re: Want to race an Imp/Clan/G15/Dav against other 1 litre cars?

Post by Gerry Richards » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:36 pm

Several people whose experience and opinions I value have offered suggestions, and some form of handicapping seems to be popular. We would still have some basic regs (e.g. pre-1980, period engine etc), but with an idea to let pretty much any small engined historic cars run together.

If I go down this route, I'm not really a big fan of staggered start races, but I've been developing an idea as originally suggested to me by Scott Clements.

The idea is that there are two races in one - the first being a conventional straight race to the flag, which will of course favour modified Davrians etc...

The other 'race within a race' is an adjustment applied to each car's overall average mph for the whole race (can't do it to time or distance as lapped cars go less far). Each competitor has a 'handicap factor' which is calculated in advance and then divided into the average mph for the race. Obviously the more highly developed the car, the higher the handicap factor and the greater the adjustment.

I've had a stab at producing a method, which you can download here http://www.classicandracing.co.uk/hundr ... HCAPv3.xls (spreadsheet edited to replace engine cc with bhp)

The handicap factors are the scores in bold with a green background, found by multiplying the column above them, each row containing a number explained on the left hand side.

Examples of how this then adjusts typical race mph averages are then found lower down. These are of course only educated guesstimates, but I started with a rough idea of what I thought a good HRSR car might achieve (I know Andy Jones used to lap at 80 at Mallory, and Simon B seems to do around 72 at Oulton), and then I worked forwards and backwards from there. I then tried to set the adjustment factors accordingly, particularly to favour standardish and road-going cars.

I think it kind of works - no doubt this will generate some debate, but let's explore all options - feel free to have a play with the spreadsheet, and any members who can give me real lap times plus the spec of your car, so I can try this out, that'd be great...

Cheers

Gerry

Cheers

Gerry
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:35 pm

It's been a busy week since I pitched this idea last Thursday. The prevailing opinion (which I agree with) is that the series should stick to pre-1980 and a strict capacity limit of 1000cc, but that other than that the regulations governing eligible cars should be fairly relaxed.

Having said that, there needs to be an incentive for people to run with more lightly modified, road-going cars, so I've continued to develop the handicap system.

The site now has two alternative regulation structures which I'd like you to look at and let me know via e-mail which you would prefer :

http://www.classicandracing.co.uk/hundr ... ssion.html

The detail still needs to be worked on of course, but I want to see which general direction would be more popular. Look out for a feature in Classic Car Weekly next week- they've been in touch after seeing a link on Retro Rides.

Cheers

Gerry
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by chrisastley » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:37 pm

Advertised on the RAFMSA Forum... It would be great to have a race series for such great cars!!

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:15 pm

So thats a no for my 1040 then (which with a generous disposition could be classed as 1 litre surely) ? :cry:


(having said that the 1040 is on the engine stand at the mo awaiting diagnosis :oops: and a spare 875 sport is in the Clan...which has surprised me...it goes OK when wound-up :D )

Also pity about the 1980 cut off....racing against modern Smarts /roadsters would be a hoot.. :twisted:
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by bazzateer » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:46 pm

Lotus-e-Clan wrote:So thats a no for my 1040 then (which with a generous disposition could be classed as 1 litre surely)
What capacity would a 60 thou overbore on a 998 engine give you? (After all, they did some Imps with 998 engines didn't they?) ;)
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Lotus-e-Clan » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:58 pm

^^^^ good point Baz! 1040 probably is a +60 overbore of a 998 come to think abou tit :D
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by ibbo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:08 pm

998 with 60 thou rebore is 1040 works out at 74 m bore as opposed to 72.5 m bore of 998
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by colin rooney » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:14 pm

Gerry i take it class C wont run unless there is enough intrest but if there is not would it not be possible to say let people who have cars like mine run with the other classes and start at the back of the grid and not be entered in the championship as i would just like to compete in my imp against other cars of the same size engine even with a hanhicap,also having read the regs with cars having to run production brakes from modern cars you would be donig away with quiet a few of the historic saloon imps as most of them run with aftermarket calipers

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:36 pm

Hi Colin

I've updated the site with two alternative sets of regs - if you have a look at Alternative 2 of the regs (which is the much looser version, and so far the more popular) then it allows for cars like yours to run. The first point mentions the inclusion of cars built specifically for racing purposes (as long as they are saloon or sports cars) and I've also removed several of the technical regulations relating to brakes etc. and replaced them with the handicap system which can be found at the bottom of the page of regs.

This is very much my favoured system and although the handicapping still needs a lot of fine tuning (and we've got a couple of years to do that) it should allow a whole range of cars from mildly tuned Imps and Minis, through road-going Clans/G15s/Mini Marcoses, right up to superlight Davrians and cars like yours. If the speed differential seems like it might be too great then we might look at what tyres are allowed but hopefully we can keep changes to an absolute minimum to allow existing cars like yours to run.

The link is at http://www.classicandracing.co.uk/hundr ... gsalt2.htm

Using this system you may be first to cross the line but someone in a roadgoing car might be the handicap winner - two winners for the price of one! Or if someone gets a lightweight road legal Clan working on list 1b tyres then they might be able to win on the track and on handicap as well!!

Cheers

Gerry
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by pimpdriver » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:57 am

Gerry
Great idea, and as much as i've never really been a fan of handicapping, i think it is probably the only way you will get enough people to enter to justify a series. Most people who have race cars at the moment are set up around a certain series and won't want to change too much. Also people with non-eligable cars for any racing series at the moment will end up still non eligable if the rules are too restrictive. I really do like your reasoned handicapping system, with various factors involved which can be fine tuned to level the field, plus it will give people the chance to try different things to improve their times and help their handicapping.

All the best with it & I'll get my name down

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by benwick3 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:07 am

Gerry,

How did you know my road legal lightweight Clan on List 1b tyres will be out this season?

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by colin rooney » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:12 pm

Cheers Gerry that sound good to me also if you are looking for helper with anything put me down i can behave my self some times :lol:

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by onomatopoeia » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:37 pm

For my sins I have to go to a MSA licensed officials training seminar every couple of years. Today was that day. One thing I learned was that if you want to use handicapping you have to have an MSA licensed handicapper do the handicapping. I never even knew that there was such a person as an "MSA licensed handicapper." :shock:

In fact there are as many as eight of them across the UK.
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by colin rooney » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:44 pm

That would be right some prat has a title MSA licence handicapper its no wonder club motorsport is near on dead when you have red tape all the time

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by SimonBenoy » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:06 pm

The Birkett 6 hour is handicapped and seems to work very well, which presumably uses 1 or more of these rare handicapping beasties. I'm sure they'll discuss with the series organiser!

Anyway, do we care - let's just try to give it a go.

Cheers - Simon
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:51 pm

It's a question of interpretation of what constitutes 'handicapping'. In my experience handicapping involves starting cars off at intervals (the VSCC use this a lot) or credit laps like in the case of the Birkett. In these cases the handicapping has a direct effect on who effectively finishes the race first or completes most laps, in either case determining the official 'on track' winner. What I am proposing is a straight race to the finish, and the car that takes the chequered flag can be considered to have 'won' the race, but then that we as a group have previously agreed that the results are subject to our own 'internal adjustments' by the formula I'm proposing (in one form or another).

Surely this way we keep the MSA happy by having what on the face of it is a 'normal race' but then we can choose to play around with average speeds and apply adjustments for the purposes of our own concept of who actually 'won' the race according to our own perception, even if we do this after the official provisional race results have been declared. Maybe we should avoid calling this handicapping all together, but I can't see how this is any different from clubs who award their own purely subjective awards like 'man of the meeting' or 'spirit of the championship' etc, and I doubt you need an MSA licenced 'man of the meeting-er' (at least not yet :wink: ). Not that our adjuste' figures would be completely subjective of course, but surely we as a group can have our own interpretation of who 'won'?

I could be wrong of course, and I'm sure this is only one of a thousand little things which need to be looked at over the next couple of years if we are going to pull this off. But let's not start worrying about technicalities of this kind too much at this early stage - if we have enough interest and gain enough momentum then we just might end up with a viable idea...

Cheers

Gerry
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Lars Hagermark » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:45 pm

Gerry Richards wrote:... let's not start worrying about technicalities of this kind too much at this early stage - if we have enough interest and gain enough momentum then we just might end up with a viable idea...
Nice approach.
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:38 am

Well we have 16 names after 9 days, so at that rate we'll have about 650 by the end of the year!!

Joking of course, I think realistically we probably need around 100 names before we can think of this as something weighty. Working on a factor of 1:5 to 1:10 from those that actually get a car to the grid from those that express an interest, I reckon we need at least this many before we can credibily claim to have an organisation that could viably get a grid of cars together.

We're getting some publicity from Classic Car Weekly next week and I hope to generate a lot more over the coming months when we've got some more concrete ideas to publicise. I haven't actively pushed this apart from the link on here and a couple of other forums, but now it's taking shape I feel more confident to take it to a wider audience. We need to get a lot more non-Imps engined cars!!

Cheers

Gerry
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by colin rooney » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:49 am

I have posted a link to you site Gerry on 10 tenths motorsport site

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113210

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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by MiniChris » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:28 am

I am interested dependant on health and money factor at the time, not registered yet though.
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Gerry Richards
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:30 pm

colin rooney wrote:I have posted a link to you site Gerry on 10 tenths motorsport site

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113210

col
Thanks Col
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Englander
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Englander » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:07 pm

Hi Gerry,

Great idea, wish you all the best of luck with it - I will register and join you for a guest appearance if ever I get my car together !

I do not know if you are aware of the French Maxi 1000 series which has been running for some years - it attrached a really wide range of cars including G15s Davrians and at least one Stiletto, that was until last year when they allowed a 1300 class. Polish-up your French and have a look :lol: http://www.tropheemaxi1000.com/.

Just one point - the handicapping can quickly add to expense with everyone needing to test how much each option is really worth on their car. If you can avoid it and organise a 2 or 3 class system that can be easily understood by a specator I think it would be better. Most people will enjoy the close racing through out the field in any case.

Good Luck
Kevin
==>Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?
==>Because I choose to.

Think Matrix, not Malcolm
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Gerry Richards
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:08 pm

Englander wrote:
I do not know if you are aware of the French Maxi 1000 series which has been running for some years - it attrached a really wide range of cars including G15s Davrians and at least one Stiletto, that was until last year when they allowed a 1300 class. Polish-up your French and have a look :lol: http://www.tropheemaxi1000.com/.
Brilliant, thanks for that link - that's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind for over here, but with extra Imp power of course! The French seem to have a real affinity for smaller cars - whenever I go to France I always notice how much smaller the cars which are in everyday use there seem to be than in the UK. Looks like we might have to have a trip over to one of their meetings to have a look!

Always liked the Renault 8s and NSU TTs. I remember a load of these small continentals at the Nurburgring when I was there a few years back. Not too many of them in the UK though....
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by colin rooney » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:10 pm

Geryy am i right in saying that 5 speed gearboxes will be ok as a lot of use are running with these .I think they way to go with the regs is as long as the car is running period parts and if say you have a car thats fitted with edis it can still run as its just an improvement on points as long as its got an imp engine or what ever make of car it be .Also would it not be better to just run the races in classes and that way you have 3 winners and work the points the same way .This way you would do away with the handicap system and you could reverse the grids so as to make tehe full race cars have to work for it only my idea

col
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Re: 1-litre race series - site updated!

Post by Gerry Richards » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:03 pm

Hi Col

Don't want to answer these points too directly as there's still a long way to go and at this stage only the overall strategy applies i.e. to find a system which simply caters for as many people as possible and that, as far as possible, everyone thinks is fair - that's the only way we might achieve the numbers we need to make this a reality. But no, I don't see things like 5-speeds being disallowed, we just need to build them into whatever handicapping system we use. All the points which have been made about handicapping and classes etc are being taken into account, but don't forget that this is still only an idea not an official series just yet. Classes and reversed grids could be considered I'm sure, although I still like the idea of a handicap adjustment based on car spec., applied after the race.

The key thing at the moment is that as many people as possible send me their details and express their interest so that the website looks as healthy as possible, particularly ahead of this Thursday when Classic Car Weekly should be running a piece, which should drive some new interest to the site and hopefully recruit some names. Got two more names down today, including a guy who's been racing a Morris Minor for 19 years, in sub-litre form!!

The encouraging thing is that everyone who has contacted me so far has expressed support and constructive ideas and everyone seems to just want to have a good old race against similar small cars, rather than being too concerned about having a set of rules which simply allow them to win!

Eric, Kevin and MiniChris - did you want me to add you to the list on the website and if so can you send me details of your cars etc?

Cheers

Gerry
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